Health Insurance and National Health Care

[shipmatekate]

Largely because of their spending. I think many times they are looking out for big business and not the working guy. I believe they have completely failed at reaching out to the Dems as well.

Thank you! Personally I think we are LONG overdue to have more than two parties with real power.

[Luanne]

I think the comparision of the health care bill and "The New Deal" is interesting. Republicans took it to the supreme court as well.
http://modern-us-history.suite101.co...eal_opposition


I do think the "I do not want to pay for others" argument does not hold water. We currently pay for tons of things that we may never recieve benefits from. I guess one example would be saying "I do not want to pay taxes for the Fire Dept. to put out a fire at someone elses home". It does not make much sense.

As a conservative (no longer a republican) I really hope they do this in a manner that will help the people that need it and not fuck things up. I do believe they need to do something about the abuses of our current system (illegal immigrants getting free healthcare for example...coming here to have babies, etc). That is the type of stuff that I do not want to pay for.

ITA

And I, too, am a Jack fan.

[pvezz]

Thought I would share this; I rec'd it from someone very near and dear to me. Names have been changed to protect the innocent - lol - but these are people who have worked FT jobs since they graduated college whose child was stricken with a very serious illness:

If this health care bill does 2 of the things that it promises to do, I'm all for it. Being able to keep your children on your policy until they reach the age of 26 is the greatest thing ever. Having a daughter with a disease that needed a $4,000 IV drug treatment every 6 weeks, we could not let insurance coverage lapse when she reached age 22 and couldn't stay on our policy. If it lapsed, she would never be able to get coverage for the rest of her life because of the pre-existing condition. We had to find a way to come up with $450 a month to keep her insured until she graduated college and was able to get a job. Not an easy task, but we got through it.

Heaven forbid any of you should have a child with a disease like ****, but if this bill passes, you won't have to worry about coming up with all the extra money because your child can stay on the policy until age 26. Also if it passes, you won't have to worry about pre-existing conditions--insurance companies won't be able to turn you away.

Okay so it's not perfect but it is a step in the right direction and they can continue to make improvements on it.

They struggled with paying for her treatment while holding down jobs, paying taxes, and putting all 4 of their kids through college. They had private health insurance through their job(s); their employer paid a % and they paid the rest.

Just food for thought.

[cindyt]

Not sure how many here actually utilize Medicare Parts A & B, or are personally familiar with how it works, but from someone who does and is, I can say that it's been an extremely efficient mechanism for me. MUCH more so than ANY private health insurance company I've ever dealt with in 30+ years of employment.

If Medicare is being held up as an example of how poorly the government runs things, I hasten to disagree. I will add, however, that as far as prescription coverage goes--it SUCKS. But this bill has provisions to close the notorious 'donut hole,' so when (and if) that happens I would consider Medicare to be far and away the best health insurance plan I've ever been involved with---fewer disputes, faster payments to doctors, you name it. I haven't had a single problem with them (with the exception of prescription coverage)--including surgeries, doctor visits, coverage, billing, ease-of-use, etc. It's efficient and it works, for me anyway, for what that's worth. I hope it stays that way.

...oh, and for those calling Medicare a "handout"--wrong. If you're working, you're paying into it. It's YOUR money, and believe me, you'll be glad you have it when the time comes, and that time will come--maybe much sooner than you think.

I've been on Medicare for 21 years, and I agree with you, Jack. I have never had problem one. I also agree about the Plan D part. The only trouble I have had is that it is sometimes hard for me to pay what I owe after Medicare pays out.

[Taggerez]

One of my greatest friends, a single woman in her 50s, is a (recently) self-employed financial analyst who worked in the corporate sector for 35 years (10 of them as my boss). She cannot obtain private medical insurance from any carrier to whom she's applied for the simple fact that a bone density test came out 'undetermined' a couple of years ago...i.e., she may be osteoporosis-bound. The test wasn't even conclusive--and she's afraid to have another as it just might show that yes, she has a disease that millions of other women will contract at her age and that fact will complicate even further her efforts to obtain some kind of coverage.

I know health insurance carriers are not charitable organizations, they're out to make a buck, and it certainly makes sense from an economic standpoint to encourage competition among independent carriers--but the status quo with health insurance is not working for so many, and is in fact taking an enormous toll in human collateral. And the scary part is--anyone out there right now could be yet another one of those casualties, by the simple event of losing their job or contracting a disease. At some point, at some time, compassion and inclusion has to start playing some sort of role in all this--otherwise we all lose, as a country and as human beings. Certainly, we will pay higher taxes, and there will be other serious economic issues we haven't even dreamed of yet. I don't think there's much disagreement about that.
But.
The private sector has been given an eternity to make some sort of substantive effort to correct inherent and long-standing problems. Their tactic of choice: ignore the humanity at the core of this and lobby like holy fuck to keep things just as they are. They've HAD their chance, no? Might it not be time to try something else? Because there are far too many people left out in the cold right now--left to die, some of them.

Not banging the drum for this bill, and not taking a partisan stance either, just trying to make sense of it. Not a huge fan of this administration or the last one either for that matter. I have no idea how things will turn out as I don't have crystal balls. Rather, I'm praying for some type of substantive, positive change--whether it comes about directly as a result of the passing of this bill, OR from lessons learned from the mistakes and problems which come about as a result of its passing.

This attempt at reform is bold, it's risky, it's problematic, it might not work, it might create huge problems for our country. It might, it might, it might. But then again, it just might work out, whether in its current form or in its inevitable permutations which will undoubtedly come about down the road. Without attempts, without mistakes and experiments and successes and failures and movement, nothing progresses--things just stay the same or, as in this case, become much worse at a very brisk pace.

You're asking the whole country to close their eyes and jump into the air with this horrible plan and hope there is a parachute that will magically open despite all evidence to the contrary. By evidence I mean thousands of years of experience with government in general and current economic and social circumstances in particular. I am not willing to be a lab rat in a "bold" "risky" experiment that is a vast attempt at social control and that all historical evidence says will go wrong.

Might? Might not? This is maddness. When it does go wrong, how many people will it wreck and how do we rectify it?

[endsleigh03]

That isn't what I get from Jack's post at all. It's one of the best I have seen in a while.

As far as the HCB goes.... the truth is that nobody knows at this point how it will play out. It's alot of gloom and guessing right now.


I know one thing for sure, there is a decided lack of compassion for the ill/uninsured and the pre-existers.

My daughter lost her insurance this past year when her dad's premiums shot up so high he could no longer afford to buy it.

My brother in law is walking around right now with a band around his stomach to keep his guts from falling out. He got a basic health insurance policy and then made the mistake of getting really sick. He is being hounded to death by bill collectors from the medical bills from his hospital stays and he is now the biggest pre-exister I know personally. All of this happened as he watched his business deflate month after month as the economy tanked. He could die without the operation, and nobody GIVES A SHIT.
His is just one tiny story among many.

I am plenty willing to see how this all plays out. For my kid, my brother in law and all the others out there who are sitting where he is sitting right now, scared and sick.

[cachluv]

Wow. Here fricken' here!!

[Paulination]

I am plenty willing to see how this all plays out. For my kid, my brother in law and all the others out there who are sitting where he is sitting right now, scared and sick.

Even though I feel this health reform as it has passed is horrible for the country, I totally sympathize with the people who have loved ones that are caught in difficult situations. God knows if it were my child or parent I wouldn't care about the big picture and would just be happy that they were going to find relief.

What scares me about this is not the present or even the near future, it is 5 years down the line if this thing goes south as economic models suggest it will. What happens then if the government must take over healthcare and the rationing begins. Maybe it is no longer economically viable to let dad who is terminally ill continue on. I don't want to fear monger but any reform we have should at the very least have a component of choice and I am afraid that will be compromised.

[STsFirstmate]

[quote=Paulination;1020494]

People I know on the inside predict the private sector health insurance will collapse by 2016.

Only if they are as stupid, short sighted and greedy as Wall Street!
This is going to be a litmus test for corporate change management and leadership.
I consult with a lot of companies and the ones who do well an have staying power are constantly reinventing themselves.
There is a wonderful chapter in David Halberstam's book "The Reckoning" about the engineering senior management at GM going to Robert McNamara (who was president of GM at the time) and they told him they needed to invest in larger paint draying ovens because the larger car designs were getting chipped and rusting later and the customer wasn't happy. He cocked his head and looked at them quizzically and said"What do you mean the customer isn't happy? They got their split.' To him cars and customers were components to generate the real product which was money for the real customer, the investor. As soon as the rest of the business and finance world slid into that mindset thinking only dividend to dividend that was the beginning of the end for long term planning, major business growth and out of the box creativity in world ( not just US) industry.
Jack I love your post it is spot on!
Regards,
Mary

[mel306]

[QUOTE=STsFirstmate;1020879]

Only if they are as stupid, short sighted and greedy as Wall Street!
This is going to be a litmus test for corporate change management and leadership.
I consult with a lot of companies and the ones who do well an have staying power are constantly reinventing themselves.
There is a wonderful chapter in David Halberstam's book "The Reckoning" about the engineering senior management at GM going to Robert McNamara (who was president of GM at the time) and they told him they needed to invest in larger paint draying ovens because the larger car designs were getting chipped and rusting later and the customer wasn't happy. He cocked his head and looked at them quizzically and said"What do you mean the customer isn't happy? They got their split.' To him cars and customers were components to generate the real product which was money for the real customer, the investor. As soon as the rest of the business and finance world slid into that mindset thinking only dividend to dividend that was the beginning of the end for long term planning, major business growth and out of the box creativity in world ( not just US) industry.
Jack I love your post it is spot on!
Regards,
Mary

The reason it will collapse is because it is insurance. Insurance only works when more is paid in then paid out. Or they at least break even. The new changes are going to drain the system and eventually collapse it.

This has been widely know throughout the insurance industry for years. It is the number one reason pre-existing condition clauses existed, it was the only way to make people buy in so the 10% that use more than they pay in, could get benefits.

Corporate modifications will work in most industries as this economy recovers, but in insurance unless the claims stay below a certain percentage.

[mel306]

Thank you! Personally I think we are LONG overdue to have more than two parties with real power.

This is the most sensible thing anyone has said. A two party system is our downfall at the end of the day in most areas. It makes every issue black or white and no real solutions come out for the people, just what the politician want.

This go round, one group wanted a legacy and they made it happen regardless of what the public wanted.

People who are against this bill are not against reform, they are against how it was handled.

[endsleigh03]

Even though I feel this health reform as it has passed is horrible for the country, I totally sympathize with the people who have loved ones that are caught in difficult situations. God knows if it were my child or parent I wouldn't care about the big picture and would just be happy that they were going to find relief.

What scares me about this is not the present or even the near future, it is 5 years down the line if this thing goes south as economic models suggest it will. What happens then if the government must take over healthcare and the rationing begins. Maybe it is no longer economically viable to let dad who is terminally ill continue on. I don't want to fear monger but any reform we have should at the very least have a component of choice and I am afraid that will be compromised.

It IS scary when something this large happens. As far as rationing of healthcare? It is already going on, simply by the fact that we have millions who are not insured. People wthout insurance don't have access to healthcare and suffer more and die faster because of that. What kills me is how we spend our money, the war is one issue (not trying to mix the two subjects, this is for example purposes only) where we are all gung ho to spend, spend, spend, but when we have a need this big inside our country it is ignored forever. I guess what I am trying to say is...there are already dads out there whose life spans are being shortened considerably.

This is the most sensible thing anyone has said. A two party system is our downfall at the end of the day in most areas. It makes every issue black or white and no real solutions come out for the people, just what the politician want.

This go round, one group wanted a legacy and they made it happen regardless of what the public wanted.

People who are against this bill are not against reform, they are against how it was handled.

How it was handled. Without the push that just happened it was NEVER going to happen. People have worked for years (Kennedy, the Clintons just to name two) to find a way to do this, and it never happened. Every time it has been knocked back.
As far as what the public wants, there are people who do want this.

[endsleigh03]

Wanted to add this.......health care costs are so freaking out of control it isn't even funny.
There is no way a hospital stay should cost half as much a buying a house.
It needs to be addressed.

[mel306]

It IS scary when something this large happens. As far as rationing of healthcare? It is already going on, simply by the fact that we have millions who are not insured. People wthout insurance don't have access to healthcare and suffer more and die faster because of that. What kills me is how we spend our money, the war is one issue (not trying to mix the two subjects, this is for example purposes only) where we are all gung ho to spend, spend, spend, but when we have a need this big inside our country it is ignored forever. I guess what I am trying to say is...there are already dads out there whose life spans are being shortened considerably.



How it was handled. Without the push that just happened it was NEVER going to happen. People have worked for years (Kennedy, the Clintons just to name two) to find a way to do this, and it never happened. Every time it has been knocked back.
As far as what the public wants, there are people who do want this.

There are many more people who want the correct changes but did not want this bill because it was too confusing, too behind closed doors and too political. If we let politicians treat any issue the way they treated this one, all hope is lost.

We elect them to vote for us, not to advance their own careers. They could have done this in a way that everyone was for it and they chose not too and push it through anyway.

What are they going to decide next for us?

I want changes, I have a son with a chronic pre-existing condition but I was totally against this bill.

[mel306]

Wanted to add this.......health care costs are so freaking out of control it isn't even funny.
There is no way a hospital stay should cost half as much a buying a house.
It needs to be addressed.

You just hit the nail on the head. There is a difference between health care and health care financing.

The Insurance companies (regardless of profit) still have to react and charge customers according to the amount of claims and the the price tag on those claims.

Why do doctors and hospitals charge the prices they do?

The main problems with health care cost are fraud and incorrect billings. Up to 50% of all claims have mistakes on them.

If the government took as much time to tackle it from this end, prices would be dropping not rising by default alone.

[Taggerez]

The government creates pricing problems it does not solve them. The nature of government is to inflate costs, not bring them down. It never lets go of the power it takes unless it is forced to.

We are all going to see the quality of health care in this country sink over the course of a generation, of course, by the time my grandchildren are a part of the equation they will be used to Third World medical standards and think America has always been like that.

The Republicans can't roll this leviathan back if they wanted to. Even with the mid-term victories that are to come, they won't have enough of a majority to do it.

The costs of defending the commercial empire overseas, Social Security and the state taking control of health care all on the back of a fiat currency will destroy us. Where will the money for all this come from? We don't even have an industrial base anymore.

[Paulination]

People wthout insurance don't have access to healthcare

I don't know about Florida but here in California we have emergency rooms and they are full of people without insurance receiving health care.

[Inked_Daddy]

I don't know about Florida but here in California we have emergency rooms and they are full of people without insurance receiving health care.

Same here in Georgia... and many are not even citizens.

[mel306]

I don't know about Florida but here in California we have emergency rooms and they are full of people without insurance receiving health care.

New York too. Here and in NJ, there are many ways around the pre-existing condition also. Children are already exempt.

[mel306]

BTW, did you know that if you dont pay your ER bill, they cannot report that to the credit bureau. It is that way here in NY, not sure if anywhere. But I know way too many slackers who refuse to buy insurance for no other reason than it would cut into your entertain money and they know all the ins and outs.

Funny how one of the biggest groups who complain about the prices are the same one who drive up the prices by skipping out on their own bills all the time.

[STsFirstmate]

I don't know about Florida but here in California we have emergency rooms and they are full of people without insurance receiving health care.

That isn't healthcare that is treating an illness with acute care. That isn't ongoing continuity monitoring risk factors and wellness treatment and most important preventive medicine.
One of the side benefits of this bill should be to unclog the ERs because folks will have appropriate ongoing care.
Regards,
Mary

[mstee2u1972]

Yep. I left my illness go because I could not afford the expense and look what happened to me 2 weeks ago. I had to go to the ER for an urgent blood transfusion. My blood levels were so low that the Doctor freaked out and having Lupus on top of it does not help.

I'm tired of the damn premiums going up, then having to wait for the deductibles to kick in, pay for what the insurance did not cover, and then pay outrageous amounts for prescriptions (that I need) which results in scraping pennies to get by? Like I mentioned in an earlier thread, I'm in debt and have to file for bankruptcy.

Last June I had to have 3 surgeries on my left middle finger due to an infection. Ultimately, one of the surgeries resulted in partial amputation of said finger. My insurance paid a portion of the hospital stay, rehabilitation, meds, etc., but in the end I still was left with a hefty bill close to the amount of $7,000. That amount represents what I had to pay. I immediately set up a payment plan with the hospital and was making monthly payments up until recently when I applied for charity care with the hospital I had these services at. Fortunately I was approved for a 100% write off of the remaining balance based on my income. Had this option not been available to me, I would have been in debt for these surgeries for at least 4 years.

The lady that helped me in the billing department told me that they only have six patient account representatives and are overloaded with people seeking charity care due to job loss, no insurance, etc. She said it is likely their caseload will be extremely high for a long while. Many are people like me that work but have medical bills in excess of what they can afford to pay. So if this healthcare reform will help all that are in need of it, I say it is a bill whose time has definitely come.

[MaxyMillions]

One of my greatest friends, a single woman in her 50s, is a (recently) self-employed financial analyst who worked in the corporate sector for 35 years (10 of them as my boss). She cannot obtain private medical insurance from any carrier to whom she's applied for the simple fact that a bone density test came out 'undetermined' a couple of years ago...i.e., she may be osteoporosis-bound. The test wasn't even conclusive--and she's afraid to have another as it just might show that yes, she has a disease that millions of other women will contract at her age and that fact will complicate even further her efforts to obtain some kind of coverage.

I know health insurance carriers are not charitable organizations, they're out to make a buck, and it certainly makes sense from an economic standpoint to encourage competition among independent carriers--but the status quo with health insurance is not working for so many, and is in fact taking an enormous toll in human collateral. And the scary part is--anyone out there right now could be yet another one of those casualties, by the simple event of losing their job or contracting a disease. At some point, at some time, compassion and inclusion has to start playing some sort of role in all this--otherwise we all lose, as a country and as human beings. Certainly, we will pay higher taxes, and there will be other serious economic issues we haven't even dreamed of yet. I don't think there's much disagreement about that.
But.
The private sector has been given an eternity to make some sort of substantive effort to correct inherent and long-standing problems. Their tactic of choice: ignore the humanity at the core of this and lobby like holy fuck to keep things just as they are. They've HAD their chance, no? Might it not be time to try something else? Because there are far too many people left out in the cold right now--left to die, some of them.

Not banging the drum for this bill, and not taking a partisan stance either, just trying to make sense of it. Not a huge fan of this administration or the last one either for that matter. I have no idea how things will turn out as I don't have crystal balls. Rather, I'm praying for some type of substantive, positive change--whether it comes about directly as a result of the passing of this bill, OR from lessons learned from the mistakes and problems which come about as a result of its passing.

This attempt at reform is bold, it's risky, it's problematic, it might not work, it might create huge problems for our country. It might, it might, it might. But then again, it just might work out, whether in its current form or in its inevitable permutations which will undoubtedly come about down the road. Without attempts, without mistakes and experiments and successes and failures and movement, nothing progresses--things just stay the same or, as in this case, become much worse at a very brisk pace.

Cue the David Cassidy music...."I THINK I LOVE YOU!!!!" Jack, this is my all-time-favorite post! You have managed to verbalize the thoughts I can't explain.

Will the new reform help you with prescriptions? The donut hole is just ridiculous. I have a client that is out of coverage every year by May, but still has to pay $265/month to keep the policy, and they refuse to allow him to pay for more coverage. The Cymbalta rep gave me a month's worth of coupons for him, but that is emptying the ocean with a teaspoon.

As far as your friend goes, is there anywhere she can go to have the bone density test on the down-low? I know a couple of people in similar circumstances that have gone to a local independent clinic that has sliding fee scale to have tests done or get basic health care. Apparently, this clinic is run by some renegades that are disgusted by the "medicine as big business" attitude that predominates in this town. I hope your friend can be helped by the upcoming changes!

[endsleigh03]

I don't know about Florida but here in California we have emergency rooms and they are full of people without insurance receiving health care.

This drives up costs for others (like med costs are not high enough) when people are using ER's as the only help available and they aren't able to pay those bills. Also, here at least, the uninsured are charged higher rates. Er's are not a long term answer.

[Paulination]

So what are we really getting at here? Are we not supposed to be individually responsible for the expense of our own health care whether it is an insurance premium or a doctor/hospital bill? I was raised that you have to work for what you get and that relying on the government to give you something was not a good thing.

I had to earn money for my first car, had to pay for my first apartment, had to find a job that offerred a health plan and yes I had health insurance and car insurance since I was in my early twenties. My parents did pay for college tuition but everything else I had to pay for.

I do believe in social programs as a safety net but not as a way of life. I just don't know exactly what you folks are advocating? A public system? I pay alot in taxes now so should I pay more? Am I an asshole for believing as I do? Set me straight because I am going in circles in the post.

[shipmatekate]

This is the most sensible thing anyone has said. A two party system is our downfall at the end of the day in most areas. It makes every issue black or white and no real solutions come out for the people, just what the politician want.

This go round, one group wanted a legacy and they made it happen regardless of what the public wanted.

People who are against this bill are not against reform, they are against how it was handled.

Well, just as many people did not like the fact that the war was pushed through the same way.
These people did not use racist slurs or threats of violence to get their point across like the extremists today are doing.

[neilmpenny]

So what are we really getting at here? Are we not supposed to be individually responsible for the expense of our own health care whether it is an insurance premium or a doctor/hospital bill? I was raised that you have to work for what you get and that relying on the government to give you something was not a good thing.

I had to earn money for my first car, had to pay for my first apartment, had to find a job that offerred a health plan and yes I had health insurance and car insurance since I was in my early twenties. My parents did pay for college tuition but everything else I had to pay for.

I do believe in social programs as a safety net but not as a way of life. I just don't know exactly what you folks are advocating? A public system? I pay alot in taxes now so should I pay more? Am I an asshole for believing as I do? Set me straight because I am going in circles in the post.

Nice to be individually responsible for the expense of your own health care. What happens when you do not have the means? Not everybody has the means or life skills to look after themselves, do we just dump them?

Your parents paid for college tuition? Are you a freeloader? Soft? Why didn't you pay your own way? Why did your parents have to pay your way? I had to pay for mine, plus a few degrees and diplomas afterwards. Maybe we all need a helping hand along the way. You begrudge a handout to those that need it but have no compunction putting your hand out to your parents when it suits your needs. I didn't ask my parents, I sucked it up and did it on my own.

You are weak.

You are a mean asshole. You only give a fuck about yourself and everyone can go suck it as far as you are concerned.

I too was raised that you have to work for what you get, but i was also raised to show compassion for those less fortunate.

I had to earn money for my first car, had to pay for my first apartment, I did this as part of the process of living a life. I never complained, I just did it... it is what you do to get along.

In answer to your question, yes, you are an asshole.

[shipmatekate]

Nice to be individually responsible for the expense of your own health care. What happens when you do not have the means? Not everybody has the means or life skills to look after themselves, do we just dump them?

Your parents paid for college tuition? Are you a freeloader? Soft? Why didn't you pay your own way? Why did your parents have to pay your way? I had to pay for mine, plus a few degrees and diplomas afterwards. Maybe we all need a helping hand along the way. You begrudge a handout to those that need it but have no compunction putting your hand out to your parents when it suits your needs. I didn't ask my parents, I sucked it up and did it on my own. You are weak.

You are a mean asshole. You only give a fuck about yourself and everyone can go suck it as far as you are concerned.

I too was raised that you have to work for what you get, but i was also raised to show compassion for those less fortunate.

I had to earn money for my first car, had to pay for my first apartment, I did this as part of the process of living a life. I never complained, I just did it... it is what you do to get along.

In answer to your question, yes, you are an asshole.

APPLAUSE!

Well said. I agree he is an asshole.
I would not have said so had he not asked.
Sadly my BIL has the same outlook. He honestly believes that because he is ok that everyone is and anyone asking for help is a freeloader and liar.
I let him know that although I spent time homeless as a teen/young adult, did not finish HS I am not a freeloader. I was SO lucky that Jimmy Carter had programs like CETA. It got my career in high tech started because I was able to earn as I learned. This education took me from age 20 to 50 (present day), a time when those skills are obsolete.
Some people do not know the real meaning of hard times.

I lived in a baseball dugout and worked two jobs until I could rent a room.
It was hell and I would have welcomed any help I could have received.
At the time there was nowhere for me to turn.

Then came CETA.

As a society we have been taking responsibility for those that have and those that have not. That is why our taxes pay for Firefighters, Police, SCHOOLING FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE LOIN DROPPINGS and many other services we all take for granted.

What is wrong with people that they have ZERO compassion?

[neilmpenny]

APPLAUSE!

Well said. I agree he is an asshole.
I would not have said so had he not asked.
Sadly my BIL has the same outlook. He honestly believes that because he is ok that everyone is and anyone asking for help is a freeloader and liar.
I let him know that although I spent time homeless as a teen/young adult, did not finish HS I am not a freeloader. I was SO lucky that Jimmy Carter had programs like CETA. It got my career in high tech started because I was able to earn as I learned. This education took me from age 20 to 50 (present day), a time when those skills are obsolete.
Some people do not know the real meaning of hard times.

I lived in a baseball dugout and worked two jobs until I could rent a room.
It was hell and I would have welcomed any help I could have received.
At the time there was nowhere for me to turn.

Then came CETA.

As a society we have been taking responsibility for those that have and those that have not. That is why our taxes pay for Firefighters, Police, SCHOOLING FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE LOIN DROPPINGS and many other services we all take for granted.

What is wrong with people that they have ZERO compassion?

I spent a year sleeping on a couch at a friends house because I was totally on my arse. It was not pretty but it is what I had to do to to get by. Every day I thank my mate for letting me camp there and rebuild my life. If it were up to Paulination I would be dead.

[Paulination]

Your parents paid for college tuition? Are you a freeloader? Soft? Why didn't you pay your own way? Why did your parents have to pay your way? weak.

You are a mean asshole. You only give a fuck about yourself and everyone can go suck it as far as you are concerned.

In answer to your question, yes, you are an asshole.

First, my parents paid for my tuition because they had the means and felt it was the last of their parental duties to do so. Much like the tradition of paying for ones daughters marriage.

Second, you have know idea the kind of person I am as far as being a mean asshole is concerned. I have succeeded quite a bit in many fields and never stepped on a single soul to do it. I am a church going family man who gives to charity (when I can) and do alot for my folks as I do feel extremely indebted (in a good way) to the life they have helped me forge.

The purpose of my last post was to help move the discussion along. I felt there were alot of anecdotal responses without anyone really saying what they felt the real solution is. Is it single payer? Well then expalin how that will pan out fiscally. Is it the kind of reform that just passed? Well than explain how we avoid the numerous landmines I have identified in posts past. Is it something else?

I went out on a ledge because I wanted everyone reading to know where I stood in order to place some context on my comments. BTW, the "am I an asshole" question was a rhetorical one. I really didn't expect someone to come on here and call me one.

In short, I believe in personal responsibility with a modest social safety net for those who need it. I believe there are exceptions to this (such as the disabled) and those do need to be dealt with in a sensitive way. I believe wellfare should be limited and I believe you ALWAYS take care of the children, and the elderly. The rest of us should make it ourselves with a little help along the way if you need it.

I came onto this forum because I, like everyone else here am fascinated by a common niche. I also think Scott Michaels is brilliant and wanted to be a part of something he created. Are my views too extreme for this crowd? I guess it depends on who you ask. Don't worry Neilmpenny, I know your answer.

[cindyt]

Folks, please do not respond to attackers.

In case you don't know, everyone's opinion here is valued. If you don't agree with someone scroll on by. If you see an attack going down, report it.

[mel306]

Well, just as many people did not like the fact that the war was pushed through the same way.
These people did not use racist slurs or threats of violence to get their point across like the extremists today are doing.

Truthfully, I didn't know other things were pushed through this way until recently. I am against anything going through this way.

We elect officials to vote how we want, not find loopholes to get things they want.

I am guessing I never realized how things were voted on before because the media decided to go into overdrive now and not as much for the past things.

People still feel the war is far away and not as personal as healthcare, so that is why more are so upset now. But I have seen people get just as upset about the wars.

[mel306]

I would like to bring up compassion for a moment in a different context.

Does anyone else wonder why doctors, who take an oath to do no harm, are more concerned about your insurance than you, when you show up sick?

If every doctor had to do a little pro bono work each year, maybe we would all be in a better place.

There is a big difference between healthcare and healthcare financing. This bill was about financing but the healthcare itself is getting lost in this equation.

[STsFirstmate]

Truthfully, I didn't know other things were pushed through this way until recently. I am against anything going through this way.

We elect officials to vote how we want, not find loopholes to get things they want.

I am guessing I never realized how things were voted on before because the media decided to go into overdrive now and not as much for the past things.

People still feel the war is far away and not as personal as healthcare, so that is why more are so upset now. But I have seen people get just as upset about the wars.

Parliamentary and procedural contortions have been used by both sides since Hector was a pup. It is always a matter of whose ox is being gored.
Dixicrats and others opposed to the Voting Rights Act filibustered that sucker as long as they had the strength to stand. Back in the old days you had to do more than announce the intent to filibuster which is all you have to do now to force the super majority vote. Back then you had to stand up their and talk until the opposition mustered sufficient majority to over ride the filibuster.
Strom Thurman holds the record for speaking for 24 plus hours straight about virtually nothing even reading his grandmothers biscuit recipe. Just to block legislation assuring a more equitable approach to Civil Rights.
These are not constitutional rules they are procedural rules of the House and Senate and they can be changed.
Each side is reluctant to do it because they want things like filibusters and reconciliation to be an arrow in their quill when they eventually need it.
Republicans have used all of items with increasing frequency themselves as a matter of record far more often than have Democrats.
I am pleased health care reform has passed and it makes me happy to know we can still pass difficult legislation and do great things that have risk associated with them.
Time will now tell us who is right or wrong. Seeing the behavior of some conservative Republicans like Georgia's Governor appointing a special AG to file suit over the bill because the elected AG told him there was no basis in law for the suit. Also the vandalism and death threats and the veiled rhetoric of some politicians walking a thin tightrope stopping just short of openly calling for violence disappoints me.
Not many people disliked Bush and Chaney and Karl Rove more than me but I never wished them harm or their families harm.
I wanted to use due process to defeat their policies and ideas at the polls and we did it. Threatening violence and publishing pictures of politicians children and their schools and home addresses and having an elected official state publicly that is a fellow elected official is a "dead man" if he returns to Western Cincinnati is wrong.
Time tends to separate the chaff from the wheat. Lets see what shakes out of all of this.
Regards,
Mary

[Luanne]

I agree, Mel.

[Taggerez]

Well, just as many people did not like the fact that the war was pushed through the same way.
These people did not use racist slurs or threats of violence to get their point across like the extremists today are doing.

What racial slurs are you referring to?

[shipmatekate]

I would like to bring up compassion for a moment in a different context.

Does anyone else wonder why doctors, who take an oath to do no harm, are more concerned about your insurance than you, when you show up sick?

If every doctor had to do a little pro bono work each year, maybe we would all be in a better place.

There is a big difference between healthcare and healthcare financing. This bill was about financing but the healthcare itself is getting lost in this equation.

You are addressing a really complex subject, and one that needs addressing.

As with everything some doctors do their profession no favors with their attitudes about money versus patient care.
There are also doctors that knock themselves out for the patients.
And lots of types in between.

We can not legislate that doctors go into medicine for "the right reasons". That would be legislating morality.

What can we do? I am baffled as to what the clear path should be.
I think we needed a good kick in the butt over healthcare. Now we have to hope that people will behave civilly and stop the violence and actually engage in discussions.

[shipmatekate]

What racial slurs are you referring to?

Protesters at Senate and Congress shouting hte "n" word.

Google it, it was pretty well covered, for a brief moment

[Inked_Daddy]

As far as I know none of the "Slurs" were captured on audio or video. I am not saying they did not happen... there just does not seem to be a record of it other then people claiming that it happened.

There are multiple forces attempting to dismantle the Tea Party movement and pulling the race card is a classic trick being pulled out of the hat right now by the left.

[STsFirstmate]

What racial slurs are you referring to?

I would guess she is referring to the N word used by people lining the halls of the capital as the reps walked in and the use of the term Fag aimed at Barney Frank. Kate correct me if I am wrong.
Regards,
Mary

[STsFirstmate]

As far as I know none of the "Slurs" were captured on audio or video. I am not saying they did not happen... there just does not seem to be a record of it other then people claiming that it happened.

There are multiple forces attempting to dismantle the Tea Party movement and pulling the race card is a classic trick being pulled out of the hat right now by the left.

They were catpured. They were played on the rachel Maddow show but were bleeped. From the video you could certainly tell the word fag ws used without being told.
Regards,
Mary

[Inked_Daddy]

I guess I am looking for evidence reported by several sources (Conservative & Liberal both) of hordes of slurring protesters and I still have not seen that. I bet anyone a dollar that you could go to just about any political rally and catch some slurs if you have your camera pointed the right way.

Edited video of one person reported by a liberal media site does not prove the case to me at all.

[STsFirstmate]

I guess I am looking for evidence reported by several sources (Conservative & Liberal both) of hordes of slurring protesters and I still have not seen that. I bet anyone a dollar that you could go to just about any political rally and catch some slurs if you have your camera pointed the right way.

Edited video of one person reported by a liberal media site does not prove the case to me at all.

I don;t think you would hear a liberal crowd calling out the N word or Fag. Maybe fascist or ignorant asshole or the like. You certainly would not hear them calling for attacks on people's families etc.
I find the tree of liberty signs very disturbing. I think it is important and healthy to have disagreement. It is all grist for the mill but violent rhetoric is wrong whichever side is using it.
I agree that TV cameras and media types zero in on the most outrageous and incendiary image they can find. The same at gay pride rallies. You never see the gay veterans or gay nurses or gay families or square dancer groups you only see the most flamboyant minority exhibition they can photograph.
The old news saying is if it bleeds it leads.
I just wish we could all, on both sides take a deep breath and think about how we are dealing with each other.
Regards,
Mary

[STsFirstmate]

I guess I am looking for evidence reported by several sources (Conservative & Liberal both) of hordes of slurring protesters and I still have not seen that. I bet anyone a dollar that you could go to just about any political rally and catch some slurs if you have your camera pointed the right way.

Edited video of one person reported by a liberal media site does not prove the case to me at all.

Inked here is your point illustrated. Karl Rove's book signing being disrupted by war protesters. They are calling him a war criminal and a liar and one of them does say "heck".
I think Code Pink has a ways to go before they can match the vitriol of Code Red but sadly I think we are getting there. Sigh!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/....html?hpt=Sbin
Regards,
Mary

[Paulination]

They were catpured. They were played on the rachel Maddow show but were bleeped. From the video you could certainly tell the word fag ws used without being told.
Regards,
Mary

I didn't see this but if it is true, then it certainly doesn't help the cause. Being violent and racist to express your position on something only minimizes the effectiveness of the protest since most people will dismiss you over it. Besides, it is an asinine way to behave.

[Inked_Daddy]

Inked here is your point illustrated. Karl Rove's book signing being disrupted by war protesters. They are calling him a war criminal and a liar and one of them does say "heck".
I think Code Pink has a ways to go before they can match the vitriol of Code Red but sadly I think we are getting there. Sigh!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/....html?hpt=Sbin
Regards,
Mary

I think Karl Rove is one creepy SOB in a CIA/Blackwater/etc kinda way. I do not like that guy at all.

[Barbossa]

I think Karl Rove is one creepy SOB in a CIA/Blackwater/etc kinda way. I do not like that guy at all.

I can't stand Karl Rove, who's the reason Dubya was POTUS for 8 years (meaning, in part, that he was a brilliant campaign strategist). The protesters called him a war criminal, I can't say that I disagree with this.

[STsFirstmate]

I think Karl Rove is one creepy SOB in a CIA/Blackwater/etc kinda way. I do not like that guy at all.

Me too! I just did a presentation to what was Blackwater and is now called Xe pronounced "Zee" as they promptly corrected me.
I must say I felt like I needed a shower after the presentation. That is one client I have hoping we don't land. Uuurgg!
Half of why I didn't care for Bush is all tangled up in Karl Rove and his influence.
The Blackwater Xe group we would be dealing with is the group that provides motor pool service to the military.
There are craploads of vehicles that must be mothballed in such a way and prepared for storage in Saudi Arabia as the war draws down that they can be called back into service quickly.
They want to hire us to develop a process plan for them to follow.They have a million business entities that do all sorts of things but these guys all looked like mercenaries. I generally like working with ex-military but these guys were creepy.
Regards,
Mary

[Hag1]

I do not have health insurance now because I can't afford it.
It appears that with the new plan, in four years I will be required to buy health insurance that I can't afford.
I am screwed.

[endsleigh03]

***sigh***

There is this aspect too. There will be fines if you don't buy it, except in cases of hardship, if I have it right.

Oh, and BUY IT really stands out here.

While all this shit was going on in this thread I forgot to put this in...
I (and others) would like to be able to purchase some more AFFORDABLE health insurance than what seems to be available right now.

Not handouts from the Govt. PURCHASE IT.

Anyway, above all else, it's law as of now, and a campaign promise was taken care of in the process.