Ummm....the insurance company may collect 200 or 300 from one person and pay out 2000, but all the other bazillion people paying in?
I am CONSTANTLY seeing items on the news about how faked car accidents and other claims drive up the cost for EVERYONE.
More goes in than comes out.
Insurance is a highly profitable business or there wouldn't be so damn many of them.
Renowned Death Hag
OK, I'll explain it differently. If you knew that you could buy car insurance after the accident would you buy it in the first place?Originally Posted by endsleigh03
If a person paying for health insurance knew that they could go without coverage and in the unfortunate event that they are diagnosed with something bad, they could then buy the insurance and the company would have to cover the illness, would they still keep their coverage? Some would, but alot of people would opt to stop paying monthly premiums in favor of the penalty until they got sick.
This healthcare bill will accomplish the opposite of what it is set out to do.
Renowned Death Hag
add to that no alimony in Texas and you've pretty well got me back in the day!! It's all good now, but I know how you feel. I lived without if for 8 years until I got my degree and a job, but it was very scary. and boy is my insurance paying for it now...8 years and no dental! I wish you luck, I do.
I have no doubt at all that there is going to be lumps and bumps along the way as this comes fully into effect. Even after all these years Medicaid, Medicare, even Social Security, are tweeked and changed. And you have to figure that when all those programs went into play at the very beginning, people were screaming their heads off over govt. intervention.
Just exactly the way they are now.
If the penalties are not serious enough, and people are playing with the system, then the penalties will have to be more severe.
And there are oh so many ways for them to do that.
Think income taxes for example. What happens when people don't pay? Nothing good, thats for sure.
And that is not a problem that ever goes away.
Look at unpaid child support, here they will take any tax refund you are due(they can do this for years) AND your license. And put you in jail.
Those are just a few examples.
The truth is that health insurance for everyone is needed and way past due in this country.
And....it's law now.
Renowned Death Hag
Read between the lines, the law is broken and that is intended. I have laid out economically and mathmatically why this law won't work as it is written and I assume the government in it's infinate wisdom should realize the same thing. That means, the end result of the insurance industry failing is the desired one.
There is not enough support in America for a single payer system to exist in a conventional way so the only way for the democrats to get it through is to break the industry to the point where they must step in to "save" us. Once the insurance industry is destroyed, there is no going back and your federal government has grown by 17% overnight and controls your healthcare. There will not be enough time for the government to implement "tweaks".
Pauli, do you honestly believe the govt. is out to destroy the (your) insurance business? That this is all about govt. takeover and nothing to do with the fact we are at crisis levels with healthcare costs and the uninsured?
And while you have laid out a scenario for why this will never work, you still have not given any concrete ideas or plans for what WILL work for the problems we have with uninsured people in the US.
All I see is no, no, no.
Last edited by endsleigh03; 02-24-2011 at 04:33 AM.
Renowned Death Hag
I tried to do that some posts back and recieved nothing but sarcasm and snide remarks about how I won't give an honest opinion because of my industry affilliation among other things.
I do honestly believe there is an agenda at work here. The government is trying to implement a plan that will destroy the healthcare and insurance industry as it is today. Once it is gone they will have no other choice but to take it over. If you have read my posts in other threads you should know I'm not a conspiracy nut but if you do the math, even in a remedial setting, it can't work.
Funniest yet.
If this turns out to be anything like what the state of Florida did as far as offering affordable health care over the last few years, it's all doomed.
Think the federal govt. poses a threat, but it'll be nothing compared to what will follow if local govt. gets hold of it.
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2011/02..._lnk3%7C203969
One of the highlights of what Florida offered was a $50,000 LIFETIME cap on medical. One hospital stay and it's over for the policy holder.
I remember checking into this a couple years ago and we took to calling it the you-can-get-sick-but-you-really-better-not health insurance.
Renowned Death Hag
Quite honestly it is time for the health insurance industry to be destroyed.
Rates increasing 30 percent a year, year after year is BS.
Record profits for Health Insurance carriers is BS.
It's the insurance industry that stands to be put back where it belongs, making a decent and not an obscene profit.
Healthcare is not the concern and the agenda is the insurance companies wanting to continue sucking everyone dry.
Renowned Death Hag
Wow, the silence is deafening.
I was speechless after your post #460.
Renowned Death Hag
I was speechless after your post #460.
Well, I am really tired of people shrieking like wounded baby seals over the health care bill when the issue is really the insurance companies.
They need to be STOPPED.
No one has offered any solutions - just criticism.
The lack of solutions, and the refusal to do any kind of coming together in our Govt. is sickening.
I have very good health insurance and dont pay through the nose for it, and only carry myself since my daughter is carried under her dad/
I rarely use it, I almost always go to the VA Hospital here, which is a state of the art facility. Its where I've gone since I got off active duty 23 years ago and didnt have insurance. I honestly love the care I get there and they are really good to me.
When I was out in Vegas recently and had an allergic reaction, I even went to the VA facility out there as opposed to going private.
Renowned Death Hag
Why do you always say that when someone doesn't reply quick enough? I was up in the mountains in the snow most of the day.
First, record profits is not exactly correct. When Obama said that only one company had reported their earnings yet he made the statement anyway. They weren't hurting, but a healthy bottom line for any company, in any industry doesn't mean the people are getting gouged.
Health insurance companies are regulated by the states. They must use 80% of premiums on health claims. That leaves 20% for administration, leases and commisions for those that bring them business. When the actuarials set the rates they go to the commisioner whom MUST APPROVE them or they don't stand. The government has the final say if the rates are fair, not the carrier. If the rates are suspect, the GOVERMENTS ACTUARIALS do their own forensic accounting to protect the citizens.
The problem is the uninsured and the cost of good healthcare. Obamacare is trying to solve the first problem by mandating that people have coverage but that won't work as written because of the potential constitutional ramifications and the penalty for not having insurance is too low.
My baby girl needed to have a small cyst removed from her lip. Because she was onlt 1 they had to put her under. By the time I handed her to the docter until the time she woke up was maybe 15 minutes. The hospital billed me $6250 for the service. The insurance company paid $3250 towards the bill and I had to pay the remaining $3000 because I have a high deductible health plan. The point is the HOSPITAL is the one that charged me, not the insurance company.
I pay $700/ month for my family coverage. $700 X 12 is $8400 per year which means a 5 minute surgery with a 15 minute recovery cost my insurance carrier 40% of the premiums collected. Not to mention our prescriptions, doctors visits etc...
If the solution to the problem was easy this would have been solved a long time ago.
Heres an article about insurance company profits.
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/ins...aking-records/
Renowned Death Hag
I still believe that insurance companies are making too much.
I read the reports, and it seems that the government SHOULD step in and make this a NOT FOR PROFIT business.
PERIOD
^^But what people don't understand is-
The government "stepping in" could actually be a WORSE thing.
What is worse is people dying because they can't get insured.
There's a whole new breed out there too, because of all the people who have lost jobs.
One thing is for sure...hospital charges are out of control.
Ask for a pain pill and get charged 150 bucks for the nurse to walk down the hall and get you a Tylenol.
(that's especially irksome if the nurse doesn't come up with something more fun than a Tylenol
Renowned Death Hag
Blue Shield of CA is a not for profit business and they are as expensive and pass along rate hikes consistent with any other carrier.
https://www.blueshieldca.com/bsc/aboutbsc/index.jhtml
Renowned Death Hag
COULD being the operative word
Renowned Death Hag
I ran a quote today where Blue Shield was +30% over current and an alternate plan through Blue Cross was just slightly less comprehensive was 7% over renewal. Blue Cross by the way is the poster child for the "evil" insurance companies.
Renowned Death Hag
If Obamacare is supposed to increase the number of insured and lower the cost of coverage, then why has the government granted over 700 waivers to companies, unions, and other entities that might have a "decrease in access to benefits" or a "significant increase in premiums"? The market forces that these organizations operate in are the same as any other company or individual when it comes to healthcare expenses.
"In September 2010, HHS announced it would grant waivers to employers to prevent some workers from losing their benefits if the insurer could not meet the new health care law’s requirements on annual limits. The waivers are granted by HHS if it determines “compliance with the interim final regulations would result in a significant decrease in access to benefits or a significant increase in premiums,” according to a Sept. 3 memo by Steve L. Larson, director of the HHS Office of Consumer Information and Insurance Oversight."
Renowned Death Hag
Renowned Death Hag
The whole state of Maine recieved a waiver today on a very key element of Obamacare. The dept of HHS said that the required premium dollar recieved to dollar spent on claims ration would likely cause a destabilization of the individual insurance market. That is a problem that all states will have.
Death Hag of Legend
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
I love the part where they say they will help lower income people obtain these shots but the paperwork they will need to go thru may cause premature births anyway because it could take too long to get the red tape over with.
Death Hag of Legend
Also people who make over $100,000 a year would basically have to devote 1/3 of one years income for one medication that costs nothing to produce. Fucking ridiculous.
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Renowned Death Hag
This is the kind of stuff that needs reform.
Renowned Death Hag
Add this to the list of why healthcare is so expensive. In CA., an audit of what the top local government employees make list 12 of the top 20 as working in healthcare.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2...tops-pay-list/#
Renowned Death Hag
Doctors at a Canadian hospital went to court to have this baby's breathing tube removed against his parents wishes because they had determined he had no chance for recovery.
The parents wanted the hospital to perform a tracheotomy in the hopes the boy could live a few months longer and die at home. The hospital refused and their decision was supported by the courts.
An AMERICAN hospital agreed to do the procedure and the boy was transferred by an AMERICAN helicopter paid for by an AMERICAN charity.
When you have socialized medicine these are the decisions you get. The boy cost too much money to keep alive when in their minds there was no hope. Maybe it was a lost cause, but at least perform the procedure so he can at a minimal, die at home.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2...heotomy-in-mo/#
From what I've read up here about this case, it truly is a hopeless procedure. If the Americans want to pay for the procedure so the baby can die at home, that's fine. You might find one or two people down in the states who are a little bitter about that money going to a Canadian lost cause rather than US citizens who need care.
Bottom line: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Access for every one is a wonderful thing. This system has major flaws, but I'd rather have one baby die in a hospital now instead of a week later at home than have MILLIONS of people not able to care for themselves.
In short, I think we're still in a better boat then you guys.
Renowned Death Hag
A better boat how? Unbelievable taxes and medical decision being made by the courts? The decision is justifiable in the minds of outsiders but what if it was your baby?
If it was my baby, yes. I'd probably be as irrational as these parents are being in their grief. I can't imagine what I'd do if I was losing a child. The point is, this case is an exception, not the rule.
Medical decisons are rarely made by the courts. According to the retired surgeon my mother's currently dating, Canadian patients are more likely to be harmed by being given too much control over their own care, as Doctors and hospitals are terrified of cases like this. Big brother is not directing our care ENOUGH apparently. (I don't know if I agree with that statement, but it's not as though are guidelines are so stringent that the patients have no say). Cases such as this are apparently rare.
As for unbelievable taxes? I've never felt the pinch. Any time I've been tempted to bitch about taxes, I remember that even at my poorest, when my power was shut off and I was eating rice in university, I was still able to get my knee stitched up after my car accident with no panic about cost, and that my father's last year on earth was made comfortable in long term care and all it cost my mother was 10 dollars a month for his television.
We're close to the border. Every once in a while some oilman with the bankroll to cover it will get fed up with a Canadian waitlist and go down to North Dakota or Minnesota for treatment. Most come back LESS satisfied. US hospitals make every patient feel like a dollar sign.
I'll happily pay twice what you do for a carton of smokes or a bottle of booze and have my paycheck downsized for this peace of mind.
Last edited by radiojane; 03-23-2011 at 08:33 AM.
Renowned Death Hag
That is the whole point most anti's don't get.
Our system is crap, it's been proven over and over.
Time for it to go.
Yes it is way past time for it to go.
I see Newt Gingrich said all of the healthcare law will be repealed by 2013.
When talking about the Canadian case over lunch today, someone suggested that the Charity in the states offering to perform the operation was maneuvering politically, trying to point out the flaws in a socialist universal health care system. That was pure speculation, but the timing certainly was interesting.
Renowned Death Hag
The name of the charity is Priests for Life, a pro-life but not political organization as far as healthcare goes.
Good to know. I'd assumed they were most likely pro life affiliated.
Renowned Death Hag
Yes it is way past time for it to go.
I see Newt Gingrich said all of the healthcare law will be repealed by 2013.
Can we repeal him?
Renowned Death Hag
Congress has voted to repeal a small provision in the health bill that would have required employers to file a form 1099 for every vendor they spend more than $600 on. A small move in the right direction.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2...of-health-law/
I scanned it and stopped reading as soon as I saw the line about republicans wanting to scrap all of the bill.
It needs to be scrapped right about the same time all the republicans give up their sweet health care packages and all the other benefits they recieve on the BACKS of tazpayers . And a boatload of salary as well
Renowned Death Hag
Was that news you didn't know? I agree with you on the healthcare package that ALL members of congress enjoy.I scanned it and stopped reading as soon as I saw the line about republicans wanting to scrap all of the bill.
It needs to be scrapped right about the same time all the republicans give up their sweet health care packages and all the other benefits they recieve on the BACKS of tazpayers . And a boatload of salary as well
Yes I knew.
They need to come up with decent alternatives (which they dont) or just stop.
The obamacare "Patient Protection And Affordable Care Act" is 907 Pages Long. Section 3022 of the law (about the Medicare Shared Savings Program) is just 6 pages of the 907 page law. But those 6 pages alone have become 429 PAGES OF NEW REGULATIONS.
Only 901 Pages to convert to new regulations to go. If this section is any indication, there will be 64,421.5 Pages Of New Regulations to go to add to this initial 429...
6 Pages of Obamacare Equals 429 Pages of Regulations
Giving proof to Main Street's worries that President Obama's healthcare reform will lead to thousands of new and costly [COLOR=#005497 !important][COLOR=#005497 !important]regulations[/COLOR][/COLOR], the Department of Health and Human Services has taken one small section of the law and written enough new rules to every page of Obama's campaign book, The Audacity of Hopeâ??plus another 45 pages.
You can see for yourself - Here is the link to the actual law. Section 3022 is on pages 297-302. http://www.ncsl.org/documents/health...nsolidated.pdf
The HHS regulations are here - http://www.ftc.gov/opp/aco/cms-proposedrule.PDF
http://www.usnews.com/news/washingto...of-regulations
Renowned Death Hag
Just to add to what Pat said, the number of new government employees that will be necessary to implement and enforce all of the new regulations will be staggering. This bill is a huge weight on the economy and soon the individual.
Can't say that I didn't see this coming. While the US is trying to move towards universal health care, we're starting towards some forms of privatization.
What's worse? A flat out no from the provinces for free? or paying for something that may or may not find a way to say no to you later?
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Insurer...546/story.html
Renowned Death Hag
The umbrella organization which includes many major care providers such as the Mayo clinic says that it is so complex that 90% of its providers will opt out affecting 1 in 3 people.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110511/...h_care_setback
Watched a docu called No Woman No Cry that focuses on the global problems of at-risk moms and their babies (Including the US)
One thing they touched on is the fact that in some other countries if the women can make it to the hospitals, the care is free.
Here, women can get to the care, but then find it unaffordable when they are uninsured.
The irony.
Renowned Death Hag
The wealthy in this country just don't give a damn
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