Death Hag Extraordinaire
Went there yesterday. Kind of crowded. Still yanks my chain.
The smaller chairs represent the children killed. ALWAYS tears me up.
There is still blast damage on The Survivor Tree, even after 15 years.
This was written by one of the out of state rescue teams on the side of the former Oklahoma Journal Building that now houses the Museum.
The Museum was free that day. First time I have gone. It was an experience.
Stay in Drugs. Eat your School. Don't do Vegetables.
Death Hag Extraordinaire
Jeebers, sorry for the size.
Stay in Drugs. Eat your School. Don't do Vegetables.
"Sometimes killing is accepted" OMFG
Wow hearing him makes me feel sick.
The pics of him in jail talking and staring right into the camera give me the willies.Something about his eyes
No wonder his eyes looked so weird
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...53323#36574028
I'm a goofball
Renowned Death Hag
Originally Posted by Demgirl
I certainly hope the FBI does a better job!
What scares me is that these tea party clowns support this and call it patriotism.
Yeah, right.
Renowned Death Hag
I would never call what he did patriotism or anything but a horrific act, but the thing is he thought what he was doing was right. He truly believed that killing the children in that building was no different than soldiers killing innocent children in Iraq. I do kinda agree with him on that point. No one says our soliders are wrong for killing children in other countries. They are collateral damage. What makes our children so special?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"I will be buried in a spring loaded casket filled with confetti, and a future archaeologist will have one awesome day at work."
Death Hag Extraordinaire
My damn laptop keeps acting up. The hell with typing that paragraph again.
Last edited by cleanskull; 04-20-2010 at 11:27 AM.
Stay in Drugs. Eat your School. Don't do Vegetables.
Renowned Death Hag
I got the impression that it was more about making McVeighs name known than about any other agenda. He was a complete sociopath.
Renowned Death Hag
He is a prime example of what happens when our boys get out of serving and aren't given proper counseling.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"I will be buried in a spring loaded casket filled with confetti, and a future archaeologist will have one awesome day at work."
Renowned Death Hag
It's too bad that no one noticed, or cared to report his problems while he was still serving.
But I agree, we need to take better care of our vets!
Senior Death Hag
I agree that our vets should be given extra counseling & attention when they're released from active duty.
However, in McVeigh's case from what I've read, seen, & have heard, he's had a tendancy for a very long time to be sociopathic in his behavior. And it's not too surprising with the environment he grew up in with his mother & sister. His mother is a real piece of work. I truly feel sorry for his father, though. He seems to be a really decent & caring person. I know the victims' families really seemed to be affected by his caring nature & how hurt he was by his son's actions. Couldn't say the same for his mommy dearest.
Out of all of his callousness he had shown towards everyone, the one thing that really, really gets me going is how he would blow kisses to the victims' families in the courtroom while the trial was ongoing. I do not understand why nobody said anything to the judge about this.
McVeigh certainly got what he deserved. And I think it's rather interesting how he showed himself to be a real coward in not only the way he killed & injured so many people, but also the fact that he did not want to go through the entire appeal process & waived his appeals so he could be executed sooner.
I was in Oklahoma City week before last and this time we made time to go to the memorial at the Murah Federal Building and the Museum.
Wow was I impressed. As New Yorker I can relate to the cities pain. I think it might have hurt worse if we had been attacked by not only a US Citizen but a US Soldier.
There are already pictures of the memorial on this thread so I won;t post any more of them.
I was with five colleagues a Georgia born staffer of my mine and 20 year friend, a young French born engineer and three German coworkers.
The Frenchman and two of the German's are working here at our Boston office and the remaining German was over for the meeting in OKC.
The guys were very young and they had a lot of trouble wrapping their head's around what his twisted reason;s were for doing it.
I tried to explain the Branch Davidians and Ruby Ridge and that all just seemed to confuse them more.
I must say I have a lot of trouble really understanding it myself. I just keep thinking about the Daycare and the fact Mcveigh had zero remorse for any of it. Little kids that died that day were "collateral damage" in his words. I don;t think it was PTSD I think it was just some misguided Saviour complex that he and his conspirators bought into. All those militia nuts are half a bubble off of plumb as Quigley said.
It was well worth a visit and of course well worth remembering.
Regards,
Mary
Timothy McVeigh would be the same age I am, and I always wondered what caused him to turn out like he did. I have heard interviews done with him and he was obviously intelligent and well spoken, but felt no guilt or remorse at all for what he had done. He was extremely close to his grandfather and from things I have read, his father sounded like a kind and decent person who grieved deeply for what Timothy did. I don't remember hearing anything about what his mother was like. Does anyone know anything about her? TIA
Renowned Death Hag
16 years ago today...and I can still tell ya where I was.....
RIP all that died that day...
and Tim, I hope that you truely enjoy that hot poker be repeatedly shoved in an uncomfortable place (or places) by the Devil himself.
"Go to Heaven for the climate - Hell for the company" - Mark Twain
I can tell you where I was too! What a horrible tragedy! RIP.
Saw an interview with the Weaver daughter (Ruby Ridge) and she was talking about Timothy McVeigh using Waco and Ruby Ridge as excuses or payback for why he did this.
She basically said...Don't use our name to commit something this horrendous.....
And...
RIP Baylee and all the others.
Guest
Renowned Death Hag
Can't believe it's been 16 years.
My husband was at college in OK City. He was 15 miles away and he heard the blast. I can't even mention it to him because it still affects him to this day.
I was in class at the University of Tulsa and I was in class when it happened. We got out of class at 9:15 to find everyone huddled around a TV in the lounge area. This was never done before and we were curious as to why a TV was brought into the lounge. I looked at the screen and thought I was looking at a picture of Beirut or something. I asked someone where this was and was stunned that it happened in OKC. I still remember that feeling.
If anyone ever gets the chance to get down to OKC, go to the memorial. It's definitely worth the time. I described it as extremely informative and sensitive without being sensational.
I hope to get back to it again one day.
Aviatrix, I had just left TU & moved to Philadelphia when OKC happened. Small world.
The memorial is breathtaking. I thought I was totally prepared for it when I finally got to visit several months ago & I was wrong. Those small chairs are just unbearable to look at. And the picture of Baylee Almon is one of the single most iconic images I have ever seen.
I'd be lying if I didn't say that I have wondered many times in the past 16 years when another OKC is going to happen. My jaded mind is surprised we haven't seen another major domestic attack but my ever-liberal heart keeps hoping no one could ever inflict that kind of terror again.
Renowned Death Hag
Two things: First I was a Fraud Investigations Supervisor for a major credit card company when this took place and Timothy McVeigh had a credit card issued by the company. The F.B.I. showed up (I think at was 2 or 3 days after the bombing) and all traces of the credit card were deleted from EVERY system we had. However, one of our investigators who viewed the activity on the account with the agents told me there was almost no use of the card since it was issued. Just a few minor purchases, nothing that stood out.
Second, I have always been bothered by the third person that was involved with the rental truck. No, I am not talking about the male leg they found in the wreckage that they couldn't match to any of those who were killed. After Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols rented the truck they were headed back from the rental place. There was a disagreement at a stop sign over something with another vehicle. Timothy McVeigh leaned out the passenger side window of the rental truck to yell at the other driver. So, since Terry Nichols was driving the vehicle that they took to the rental place, who was driving the rental truck as McVeigh was leaning out the passenger window to yell at the other driver? This was at an intersection and the other vehicle was to the right and crossing the path of the rental truck.
Last edited by Desert Ghost; 11-16-2011 at 10:05 AM.
I am SHOCKED and completely sickened that anyone would sympathize in even the smallest way with these murderers. They changed their "reasons" many times. I have been to the memorial, and I was so saddened that it made me physically ill. I couldn't eat afterwards, and I was sobbing in the "chairs" area. You know, I also have two friends who had high level clearance: one who worked in the Nixon administration, and another who worked in both the Clinton and Bush Jr. administrations (both are pretty radical guys, one left, one right), and both found the comment about erasing data in this age of technology that we are in, highly suspect. It is impossible to keep a secret. I just find all of these ridiculous, "building 7 was brought down intentionally" conspiracy theories so ignorant. It's not like we are in the sixties when someone could be taken out, such as MM, and no one can figure out "who dunnit." This isn't an era where govt. can give a bunch of men syphillis just to see the consequences. The Internet was in full swing when this bombing occurred. We are in an age of no secrets. We live in a time where anything that gets out can't be redacted. I just have a hard time buying it.
For those who've been to the memorial, didn't the first fifteen minutes freak you out? If you've been there, you know what I'm talking about, but I don't want to spoil it for others. There is shock value to it, and it DOES accomplish what it's meant to.
Are you talking about a particular memorial service? I've been to the memorial site, but not to a service there. I can tell you 15 minutes was long enough to bring me to tears. I posted earlier in the thread about my experience there.
I saw this as I was reading thru the thread from the beginning. It was actually Paramedic Robert O'Donnell who pulled Jessica McClure out of the well in 1987 who committed suicide in 1995. He suffered from PTSD.
Renowned Death Hag
I had to do a paper for a US History class a few years ago and I chose McVeigh as a subject.
I remember doing a lot of head-scratching as to how to present his views without making them seem logical somehow. I finally gave up on that and just told his story.
What he did was horrific, no argument there. But I believe he thought it was right. Ruby Ridge and Waco and the spoils of war, it jaded how he saw America, it just did. And I've never known anyone to be so -- without remorse. He was convinced that what he did was right. When asked how he felt about being put to death, he said something like,
"It's still 168 to 1."
Last edited by TaupinJohn; 02-27-2012 at 01:00 AM. Reason: the inevitable 3am typos
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul! (Invictus)
(And Timothy McVeigh's last words...)
The museum is equally informative without being sensational. When I was there, there were "traveling" items on loan from the national archive. 9-11 stuff and it was sooooooo odd to just stand there and look at it all. For those of you who have toured the museum beside the memorial..... how about that last room? It's a very large oval/round room.... and on the walls are the photographs of each and EVERY victim from the Murrah building. I shed tears to see them all.... the little children's shoes, the pair of glasses.... :-( Whoever said the first 15 minues there get to you.... YES! So much so! I made it through the first "door" at street side and into the open grounds of the memorial... not 3 paces in and it hit me. The hair on my arms and neck are standing up just thinking of it!
TaupinJohn, I read "American Terrorist," which is a book about Timothy McVeigh, when it first came out. It was an interesting book with a lot of details and I got the same impression of Timothy that you did. What he did to innocent victims and their families was unforgiveable, but I agree that he really thought he did the right thing for the right reasons. He never came off as particularly strange when he was growing up and he was closer to his dad and grandpa than anyone else. He took his parent's divorce badly and had a hard time dealing with it. His mom sounded like a bitch and his dad seemed like a really down to earth and nice person. What Timothy did had a horrible effect on his dad's life and he was horrified that his son could cause so much heartache and misery. I felt bad for his dad, too, because he had no idea that Timothy was capable of such evil. I wonder if his dad is still alive? I wonder where Timothy's two sisters are? It would be horrible for someone you loved to do something so horrific.
Renowned Death Hag
Saw "The McVeigh Tapes" last night and wondering if anyone else has seen it?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"I will be buried in a spring loaded casket filled with confetti, and a future archaeologist will have one awesome day at work."
Renowned Death Hag
List of dead and what they did and where they were. http://okcbombing.net/
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"I will be buried in a spring loaded casket filled with confetti, and a future archaeologist will have one awesome day at work."
This happened on my 16th birthday.....just another atrocity that seems to happen around my birthday. Mid April is not a good time!
Senior Death Hag
It happened 5 days before my father died. It was the last big/crazy world event he saw.
I was 7. I remember my mom, dad, and I being glued to the TV all day.
Yeah. Mid April is always crazy. Especially the 19th and 20th.
It was tragic in my mind then. And, it still is now. I will never forget the paper the next morning with the picture of Baylee Allman (SP?) being carried by a firefighter. Damn.
You robbed an international house of pancakes. How waffle-Harry T. Stone
Twitter: @rchamberlain87 Follow me if you want. Just play nice.
Only the good die young....
Birthday is the 19th. Maybe that explains something!
Somehow McVeigh's death didn't make up for ANY of the carnage he caused.
Nothing short of being publicly hung, drawn and quarted would
McVeigh was the same age that I am. It's hard to believe he caused so much heartache, death, and misery and felt totally justified. His Dad seemed like a decent man from what I read in the book and I felt really bad for him. He was horrified by what his son did and couldn't understand how Tim turned out like he did. The two little victim's faces that have stayed in my mind were Chase and Colton Smith.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_k07pirzBU3...oltonsmith.jpg
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...8&PIpi=3648612
Last edited by Mammy; 07-25-2012 at 05:10 PM.
It doesn't seem possible, but today is the eighteen year anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing. It's hard to believe that much time has passed. Here is a new article.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/19/opinio...oston-bombing/
Member
Wow, it certainly doesn't. I used to drive through there quite often back in 2001. And even though there was tons of traffic, people walking around and such, it always seemed surreal to be driving by where the old Federal building was and all that shit had happened.
I also remember listening to the play by play of McVeigh's execution live on the radio as I was driving later up in Indiana. It was broadcast from just outside the prison he was in. Don't remember which one. But I believe the broadcast was national. No hoots, no hollers from those in attendance. Just silence. A very sad business with many mixed emotions from people that day.
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Death Hag Extraordinaire
Holy crap. I home from school sick that day. I was fifteen. I remember that vividly.
The most dangerous woman of all is the one who refuses to rely on your sword to save her because she carries her own.
- R.H. Sin
I had a woman tell me years ago that the older you get, the faster time passes. I thought she was nuts at the time since I was young, but it is definitely the truth. It really doesn't seem like eighteen years have passed since the bombing. Little Baylee Almon would have turned nineteen yesterday. I've never been to Oklahoma, but I'm sure it is surreal driving by where the building once stood. I also remember the day of McVeigh's execution. What he did was horrible beyond words and he deserved to be executed, but it was sad, too. He and I would be exactly the same age and I just felt bad for his Dad and sisters. No matter what he did, they still loved him and were losing a family member, even though he brought it on himself and them. It was nothing to celebrate, just what had to pass for the only earthly justice being carried out. There were no winners anywhere in the situation.
Member
Yeah, alot of these have become later generation's where were you when Kennedy was shot type moments, most people knowing exactly where they were or what they were doing when these things happened. The only major one I don't remember is Kennedy. I was alive but too young to remember any of that.
Point being, events like this are so jarring and time seems to stand still for just a moment, the brain capturing the moment like a camera and forever storing it like film. These anniversaries oftwn causing much anguish to survivors and the family members of those who died if they've not had help to cope with it. I believe there was a fund set up for this one to help those immediately effected get mental health care though.
Last edited by SomeChick; 04-19-2013 at 03:08 PM.
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Kennedy was before my time, but I definitely agree with the OKC bombing being an event where people always remember where they were and what they were doing when it happened. All of the innocent babies and children killed there would be adults now.
Renowned Death Hag
I remember it vividly too. This and the Columbine massacre stick out in my mind big time for some reason.
Member
Psychologists say the brain recalls these things so vividly at times because they're such traumatic events. For those not having any ties to the event itself or past trauma in their own lives that events like these relate to, the brain just processes the event as it happens and the snapshot becomes less vivid as we grow older. But for those with ties to the event or who have something in their past these events remind them of, the anniversaries can be very traumatic if the events are unprocessed in the mind, if that makes sense to you.
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Administrator
I remember when Kennedy was still alive. He was aboard Air Force One flying over our grammar school and our teacher herded us outside; we didn't see it of course. I don't know if it was headed toward Dallas or not that day. If not, he was shot not too many days afterward. All I really remember is being let out of school and dashing home to tell mama, who already knew, of course. She was in tears and had a wild look in her eyes. I am sure she was thinking it was the end of the world because even then she was a paranoid schizophrenic and whenever something like that happened that's what she thought. I was 7 y/o.
But I too remember the Oklahoma City Bombing (and Waco before that). I do not understand how anyone can kill like that, especially babies. To do so is pure evil...
McVeigh not only killed babies, he also referred to them as collateral damage. He claimed he didn't know there was a daycare in the building until after the bombing. Whether or not it's the truth, who knows? He wasn't sorry for their deaths either way.
Member
I remember thinking (warning: unpopular opinion ahead but I'm a big picture person so I like to look at all aspects of senseless tragedies to try to make sense of them) when this firat happened, how did the system fail this guy? He was at first portrayed as a former soldier who had unresolved personal trauma during his service. Then I found out that was basically an editorial observation and not fact.
I've never believed that bit about him not knowing there was no daycare in the building. Anyone who methodically learns to build bombs, then builds them and plants the truck where it will do the most damage at the most opportune time has done his homework. All of it. He just didn't want to admit it. That is what I see.
If normal people are dissolusioned with life, the government, whatever, we do what we can to seek positive change. We don't kill people and call them collateral damage. We don't act above the law because we understand there are consequences to illegal actions. Psycho killers do not. That is also what I see.
Administrator
I remember I was pregnant with my daughter when this happened, and he was executed a few weeks after my son was born..
I've always got nervous around that time in April, Oklahoma happened on the anniversary of Waco, and Hitler's birthday is the 20th... it's like a full moon for the crazies to come out.
Death Hag Extraordinaire
20th. Anniversary today. We watched the ceremony this morning. The wife is going to the site in a little bit with our DIL and Grandson's. My blood sugar has been acting up too much and I don't want to ruin everybody's else's day if it crashes while we are walking around.
Stay in Drugs. Eat your School. Don't do Vegetables.
Renowned Death Hag
I worry this type of thing might happen again if the right wingers keep up their vitriol.
"Death has come to your little town, Sheriff." -Dr. Loomis
Matter of time.
McVeigh did this as revenge for his hero.... who was a delusional cult leading pedophile that thought he was Jesus... well pretended to be Jesus so he could better control and fuck his "flock" ahem... victims.
Renowned Death Hag
This last March it was revealed that Jennifer McVeigh, Timothy McVeigh' s younger sister, has legally changed her last name to "Hill" and is a school teacher in North Carolina.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2001/05...orth-carolina/
On Sunday, I will be running in the 5-K portion of the OKC Memorial Marathon. More than 27,000 people are running in this event. I'm very excited, yet it will be a very powerful and emotional event.
However, I can't get the idea out of my mind that something may happen. I know that security will be very tight from what I know so far.
I'll let you know about this run next week. I know this will be positive, yet please send good running vibes.
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