Did George Reeves, TV's Superman, shoot himself, or was he murdered? His death was ruled a suicide.
Did George Reeves, TV's Superman, shoot himself, or was he murdered? His death was ruled a suicide.
Last edited by harlow1137; 10-08-2007 at 11:47 AM.
Havent yet watched Hollywoodland yet...
looking on the web....
There will always be speculation regarding the true circumstances of George Reeves's death, and there are very interesting questions supporting the various theories.
A few pertinent facts: 2002 study reported in The Lancet showed that a person with a family history of even one suicide is 250% more likely to die by his or her own hand than someone with no family history of suicide at all. George Reeves had at least two suicides in his family (including the aunt from whom he got his middle name), and he had two prior unsuccessful attempts at suicide himself.
An inebriated person (Reeves's blood-alcohol content the night of his death was 2.5 times the legal limit) is ten times more likely to commit suicide than a sober person. A person with depression indicators is 30-to-90 times more likely to commit suicide than a non-depressive. An inebriated person with depression indicators is 300-to-900 times more likely to commit suicide than a sober person without depression indicators. (Source: National Institutes of Mental Health.). Reeves fit the 300-to-900 category.
Much of what has been purported as fact in this case is actually not fact, and that which is factual has quite often been misinterpreted by lay persons who rely on "common knowledge" instead of actual forensic fact. I'll try to lay out some of the evidence and convey the scientific interpretation in contrast to the lay presumption.
Multiple bullet holes in the room: True, two holes were found in the floor, in addition to the death slug lodged in the ceiling. According to Dr. Edwin Schneidman, one of the world's leading authorities on suicide (whom I interviewed), some forty percent of gunshot suicides are preceded days or even weeks ahead by what he terms "practice shots," in which the suicidal person attempts to work himself up to the act. Add to this the occasional (but not consistent) testimony by Reeves' girlfriend that SHE fired the shots several days before, and you cannot build a compelling case FOR suicide from this evidence. Reasonable doubt, yes, but a strong case, no.
No gunshot residue on Reeves' hand: Nowhere in the police or coroner's files is there any evidence that Reeves did not have gunshot residue on his hand. He was not tested for gunshot residue (a common omission in clear-cut suicides in 1959). Therefore no one knows whether such residue was there or not. You cannot build a case for or against suicide with gunshot residue evidence here, because there is no such evidence, one way or the other.
No powder burns on the skin: Popular belief has it that an absence of powder burns MUST mean a weapon was fired from some distance away. It means nothing of the kind. One homicide detective actually told me "When I see powder burns in an apparent suicide, I start thinking murder." In a contact wound, where the muzzle of a pistol is pressed against the skin, all or virtually all of the gunpowder is projected INTO the wound track and leaves little or no stippling on the external body. A pistol would have had to have been either in direct contact with the skin OR twenty or more feet away in order not to leave any evidence on the skin of burning powder. There is no point in Reeves's bedroom that is more than eight feet from a wall.
Location of the gun: The gun was found on the floor between Reeves' feet, where it might easily have fallen, since he was shot while seated on the edge of the bed. Forensic pathologist Dr. Linda Norton (well known for doing the Lee Harvey Oswald re-autopsy) told me that due to reflex action, suicide guns are found all over the place and little credence is given to where a gun lands. She went on to state that between the feet of a (formerly) seated victim is a most natural spot for a gun to land. The empty shell casing WAS found under the body, a most natural circumstance, since the most natural position for holding a pistol to one's temple is with the gun nearly upside-down. If you have doubts try this test: Without thinking about it, quickly point at your temple. If you're like most people, your little finger will be toward your front and your index finger will be toward your back. If you imagine that your hand is holding a pistol, you will see that the top of the imaginary pistol is facing behind you rather than toward the ceiling. Such a position would eject the cartridge down and to the rear of the victim, hitting the bed much more quickly than the body could fall. Again, according to Dr. Norton and dozens of criminalists I've interviewed, there's nothing unusual about finding a spent cartridge under a (formerly) seated victim.
The bullet was found in the ceiling: Continue with the imaginary gun pointed at your head. If you sit up straight, head erect, a bullet from that gun would pass through the temple and lodge most likely in the wall on the other side of you. However, imagine yourself so drunk you can barely sit upright (.27 blood/alcohol content, remember). Tilt your head to the right a little, "gun" still pointed at your temple. In this highly possible, perhaps highly likely position, a bullet traversing your temple would very likely lodge in the ceiling above your left side -- precisely where the bullet that killed George Reeves was found.
No fingerprints found on the gun: The police report indicated that the gun was freshly oiled. Despite "common knowledge" to the contrary, a freshly oiled gun will NOT hold fingerprints. Fingerprints in even a thin coat of oil will dissipate just as they will in any other liquid. Prints are usually found when oil FROM THE FINGERS is deposited on a NON-oily surface. A wide variety of police officers and criminalists have been unanimous in providing this interpretation of the lack of fingerprints. (However, one detective DID suggest to me that sometimes a report indicating that no prints were found on a weapon was really a cover for the fact that a rookie patrolman had picked up the gun improperly and ruined whatever prints MIGHT have been there. There is nothing to suggest that this is what happened in the Reeves case. But either way, the lack of prints provides no meaningful evidence whatsoever as to who held the gun at the time of firing.)
Reeves supposedly was not depressed at the time: Well, who ya gonna believe? I've got scores of interviews with friends of Reeves who will tell you that he was depressed as hell. I've got a good number of interviews with friends who state that he was not depressed. But most of the "not depressed" statements come from friends who hadn't seen him in a long time. Most of the "depressed" statements come from friends who saw a lot of him in the last weeks. He even gave interviews in the last month of his life that strongly suggest depression.
He had just signed a new contract to do Superman again: According to an interview I had with Jack Larson, "Anyone who thinks another season of Superman wouldn't depress George didn't know George." Make of that what you will.
WOW thank you for all that interesting info!!
no worries.... I found the whole case interesting!!!
hrhdiesel....excellent info!
anyone seen "Hollywoodland"??
Ben Affleck IS George Reeves. What a superb movie, with Adrien Brody as co-star.
O.T.---I could put Adrien Brody on a piece of bread. Just wanted to say
Just watched Hollywoodland....good movie. Makes ya think. I've always wondered if it was suicide or murder. Guess we'll never know for sure.
From my perspective, the ficticious detective Louis Simo in Hollywoodland comes to the conclusion that Reeves did, indeed, off himself. This after first suspecting that Leonore accidentally shot him during the course of fight, then changing his focus to one of MGM head Eddie Mannix's thugs murdered him (to protect Eddie's wife and Reeves' previous girlfriend, Toni, from any future embarrasment), to his seemingly eventual conclusion that Reeves did the deed himself, despite being Simo's investigation being funded by Reeves elderly and looney mother.
Each of Simo's scenarios are played out in detail in the film. The simulated scene of Affleck's Reeves on screen with the real Burt Lancaster during the premiere of From Here To Eternity was a nice touch. Not a bad film though not on the level of L.A. Confidential or Chinatown.
A spooky coincidence...one of Reeves' roles was in a war film titled So Proudly We Hail http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036367/ . It's about a group of army nurses stationed in the Phillipines during WW2. The credits list an all female lead...Claudette Colbert, Paulette Goddard, and Veronica Lake. Reeves the "leadest" male and Colbert's boyfriend.
At one point during the film, one of the nurses was telling a bed time story to a group of injured Phillipino children. Anyone care to guess the subject of the bedtime story?
Did anyone hear anywhere that Don McLean American Pie guy, did alot of investigation into George Reeves death? I feell sad for Superman, I was a kid when this happen and school was very bismal the next semester, we watched superman but now with the knowledge of his "suicide"
I came along later than you, Jaxx, and my exposure to the Superman series was daily re-runs...in the early 60's. It wasn't until many years later I heard of Reeves' suicide. I was somewhere in my teens at the time so it really didn't bother me other than to feel a bit sad for him. But even during 60's, long after Reeves' death, watching Superman everyday after school was a must.
BTW, in the movie So Proudly We Hail in which Reeves played a soldier and Claudette Colbert's boyfriend, the bed time story told to the Phillipino kids by a nurse was about Superman. That film was made in 1943! By then, Superman was in the comics. A portend of things to come?
Personally, I think he was murdered.
I'm wondering if Phyllis Coates or Noel Neil ever expressed their opinion of the case.
There's Metropolis Ill. in which is a superman museum, and big ass posters on the town square,where you can superimpose your head on superman and superwoman's body. They have some George Reeves stuff too.
Supposedly Toni confessed to his murder on her deathbed.(according to one of the tabloids)
IM tellin ya , this clown was murdered.. again my .02 (blimey and a post :howls) heh, nm if you dont get it..
I enjoyed Hollywoodland too
Liked Hollywoodland, but wanted it to concentrate on the Reeves story - the fictional detective story was a bore....GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
Friend of mine was going to a party and Jack Larson was going to be there - I asked him if the chance came up - to get Jack's take on it. He said Larson believes that George took his own life. But he didn't feel free to comment on it at all until after Toni Mannix died. My friend says that Jack was adamant in his statement and shrugged off any other "evidence."
My gripe with the film the two subplots...the relationship of Simo with his young son and ex-wife, and the looney guy wanting Simo to produce evidence that his wife was cheating on him...the guy eventually killing his wife. I could have done without the latter subplot...it served no purpose.
Has anyone heard of any comments that Phyllis Coates or Noel Neil might have made on Reeves' death?
Looks like suicide to me. Sometimes the easiest answer really is the right answer. Compare George Reeves suicide to Jonathan Brandis' (spelling?) suicide. Seemingly all right.... career appears to be moving forward.... walk away from their friends and go kill themselves. Sometimes, people are just nutty.
i didn't like hollywoodland the movie becuase they didn't use the real house that George Reeves was killed/lived in.
here's the real house:
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...2-02-06001.jpg
Last edited by SomeChick; 08-28-2010 at 04:15 PM. Reason: Large image changed to link to make it easier for all members to view.
Is Reeves' former home in Benedict Canyon?
I thought I may have passed it the other day (looked very familiar) but wasn't sure if he lived on Benedict Canyon Dr...anyone know?
yes the house is on Benedict. 1579 B.C
I took that picture last year.
just found out that george was in gone with the wind... he was Brent Tarleton - one of the twins on the first scene of scarlett on the porch...i was looking up the name of one of the actresses from that film & found that fact out! All these years & i didnt realise!
kool site about superman etc.
http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfa...lywoodland.php
Mrs. Lenore Lemmon before he death
have not read through the whole thread, my opinion after reading the articles throughout the last few years is that he was murdered.
I am not sure but I always felt there was some kind of kinky about this whole thing.
I read somewhere many many years ago the he had infact broken his engagement with lenore and was going back to Toni. I think she was the love of his life. I also read the George broke up with her because he caught her stealing from him and only wanted to live off of his name and that she really wasn't a nice person. Those where her freinds at his house that night and he had been in bed asleep when they came over at midnight and wasn't too friendly about them waking him up but that she insisted that they stay. There is no way anyone could have shot him and left that bedroom without being seen because there was no door to the outside above the garage. It kind of stinks like Thelma Todd and Bobby Fuller and MM investigation.
Guest
You rule Lisa.. I will get up to speed again on it tomorrow and send you what I have.. you RULE!!
Oh dear lord... still looking, it looks like the actual autopsy report like with scientific notes and stuff are for sale, I wonder if Scott actually may have it archived somewhere....
blah!
Just based on all the surroundings of the incident, what led up, circumstances at the time, etc.. it sure seems fishy!
Here's some info about the house: http://www.jimnolt.com/location.htm
With a layout... http://www.jimnolt.com/1579bcd.htm
The windows in the front are actually in the guest room.
Lisa:
some info from FAD included here..
" at approximately 1:20am reeves excused himself, and went upstairs to bed. (sic) Miss Lemon (and my comments Oh MY what a love triangle she and Reeves were in with the mob) then made a statement "he is going to shoot himself". Shortly, they heard a dresser drawer being opened upstairs, and Miss Lemmon commented, " he is getting the gun out now and he is going to shoot himself." Moments later, a shot was heard, and they ran upstairs to see what happened.
Reeves was laying across the bed on his back, naked, with a gunshot wound to the head. On the floor between his feet was a .30 caliber German Luger pistol. (sic) an autopsy ruled suicide.
Looks like his family and true friends was convinced it was murder for a few reasons..and private investigators ruled this was NOT suicide..
Now.. as I go through the actual eyewitness accounts, the circumstances with the mob and GF, and all that rot.. it is still very suspect..I wish I could give a clearer picture, but this seems to be all we can find for free.. lol.
What are your thoughts?
Hey Daphne,
I would need more info then this...pictures would be great, also where in his head he was shot. It is suspect that the gf would say he was going to do it. I wonder why she said that and if they do think it was murder, who do they think was upstairs doing it?
Anyone here have more info or perhaps a pic or two?
In all the books and shows they always had his bedroom abovethe gargae and also they said it was a one bedroom home. Now it makes more snese to me that someone could have gone up those stairs because you cannot see the front door from the den. I don't think it was Toni that shot him I thinkit was lenore because he had broken up with her or said that he wasn;t going to marry her. Toni's husband had a lot of unsavory connections and power . If he wanted it to be a suicide he could have made it that way by passing a few bucks.
Also Lenore stole that money so she must have known that George was not changing his will and that culd also have really pissed her off or she thought maybe he had already changed his will before he dumped her? and she took him out. I don;t know depression or not he had just signed
for more work,for more money and it seems odd to me that he would off himself.,
One more thing..if you thought your finance was going upstair to shoot himself would you sit there and tell your guests his step by step actions? I would have been up those stairs in a heart beat trying to stop it. How the hell did she know what he was going to do? The man was sleepingwhen those people came over and woke himup . It makes no sense. Maybe whomever killed him was hidden upstairs and was about to kill him when these people showed up and Geo came down stairs and she decided to say these things to make it look like suicde? SO since hisbedroom was in the back that gave whomever a chance to get out of a window. They said there was no way out without being seen but that isn't true either. I am sure they all went downstairs to call the cops and this gave whomever a chance to get out the backwindow or she kept the people in the den and occupied and whomever just walked out the back door and into the night?
Superman got whacked.
Stay in Drugs. Eat your School. Don't do Vegetables.
[quote=lisalouver;161671]Hey Daphne,
I would need more info then this...pictures would be great, also where in his head he was shot. It is suspect that the gf would say he was going to do it. I wonder why she said that and if they do think it was murder, who do they think was upstairs doing it?
Anyone here have more info or perhaps a pic or two?[/quote]
Anyone? Lisa is ready to give professional opinions, but we need a bit more info!!
is there a crime scene photo of george reeves.? its hard to believe with all the hollywood babylon materials not one has surfaced. how did they manage that.?
Yes, I sure would like some more information. Does anyone have his autopsy, the scene layout. etc?
I just re-read that he was laying on the bed on his back with the gun on the floor between his legs. Anyone know where in teh head he was shot? And was Reeves right or left handed?
I don't believe George Reeves killed himself just from what I have read and from that Hollywood Land movie or whatever its called.