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Thread: Native American Genocide

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    Native American Genocide

    Dedicated to my dear friend Michael River Fox

    Americans who have always looked westward when reading
    about this period should read this book facing eastward.
    --Dee Brown, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee

    Introduction

    Hello, my name is CindyT and I am a member of the American Indian Movement (AIM).

    My great grandfather, GT Standridge (Anglecized from Stand Ridge), was 3/4 Cherokee and his wife was Irish-Cherokee. One of her ancestors married General George Crook who fought Crazy Horse at the Battle of the Rosebud not many days before Crazy Horse wiped out General George Armstrong Custer and the 7th Cavalry. So, you see I am betwix the two--1/16 Cherokee with an Indian fighter in the family, ironic, that.

    I was not raised in the Native American life. One reason is my ancestors fled to North Carolina during The Trail of Tears and became Anglicized, farmers, preachers, writers, teachers, and a puglist--John L. Sullivan. Yet my Indian blood has always called out to me and I have done a heap of research, mostly about what happened in the West, I guess, because it was the end times. Yet, in my readings, thanks to Bury My Heat at Wounded Knee by Dee Brown, I discovered that to understand what happened in the West you must turn and look at what happened first in the East.

    No man is an island, nor can any society live forever in a vacuum. To wit: if a society refuses to progress it is doomed. For example, the Cheyenne were not always a western tribe. They originated in the Lakes region of Canada and eventually migrated southward into Minnesota before heading West. This tribe changed very little from point A to B to C. The first big change was using dogs instead of women for pack animals. Then they discovered and got horses and then the gun.

    A failure to change does not excuse what happened to the Native Americans, for there is no excuse for evil. And yes I do mean evil, because when you set out to destroy a people because of who they are--their color, their religion, their way of life, etc., it is evil doings.
    Last edited by cindyt; 01-23-2009 at 09:09 PM.
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    Where today are the Pequot? Where are the Narragansett;
    the Mohican, the Pokanoket, and many other once powerful
    tribes of our people? They have vanished before the avarice
    and the oppression of the White Man; as snow before a summer
    sun.--Tecumseh of the Shawnees

    The East

    The tribes of the East were for the most part a settled society. They lived in wigwams, perminent dwellings. They grew crops, gathered and hunted. The Cherokee, before they were evicted to Oklahoma, lived in cabins and even had their own alphabet and newspaper, but that did not make them equal to white men.

    It began with Christopher Columbus, of course, and progress on with the colonists. It was all about real estate (both in East and later West). People from around the world poured east, building homes and towns and forts, hunting and fishing and growing crops, stripping the forest, creeping toward Manifest Destiny, pushing the Indians out of the way like shewing flies from a pie.

    There was enough land for Indian and Anglo alike, but the Anglos wanted it all and they took it by hook and by crook and by a trail of tears and by rivers of blood. Whole tribes of people were slaughtered off the face of the earth. They tried their damnedness to live in peace and then to conquer, but they lacked the powerful weapons and the manpower to do this.

    Had they all banned together they might have won and pushed the invaders out, but they were too busy fighting tribe to tribe and it just wasn't their way to come together as a whole. This was their biggest mistake; a mistake the tribes of the West repeated, save for one shining day at the Little Big Horn, or, as they called it the Greasy Grass River.
    Last edited by cindyt; 01-23-2009 at 09:38 PM.
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    One does not sell the land people walk on.
    --Crazy Horse


    The West

    The Western tribes were nomadic. Give him a horse, a gun, a woman, a son, a teepee, buffalo to eat, victory over his enemy brothers and all the land he could walk and ride upon with the wind in his hair, and he was set. He needed nothing more and refused to change, even as he spied the onslaught of it from his perch on the bluffs or lying unseen in buffaloes wallows.

    An onslaught of gold rushers, land grabbers, trappers, whiskey peddlers, stage coaches, wagon trains filled with men, women, and their thirst for a new life, and of course soldiers. Forts and farms and way stations and towns and a transcontinental railroad sprung up where once their was just the wide prairie. Still, there was enough room for all, but these Americans want it all.

    Treaties were signed and broken. "They made us many promises, more than I can remember, but they never kept but one; they promised to take our land, and they took it." Speaker unknown.

    Settlers spread diseases, like mumps, measles, small pox, that the Indians had never been exposed to and had no capacity to withstand. What is more they were sometimes given blankets contaminated with these diseases to further destroy them. They were plied with rotgut whiskey, which they had never drank and could not handle. Many of them became drunks, losing their dignity, living for drink, destroying their lives and that of their family.

    The buffalo were wiped out.

    Payback was long overdue and when it came, General George Armstrong Custer died for the sins of his fathers. After 400 years of oppression and annihilation, certain of the Western tribes were fed up and hellbent.

    The Northern Cheyenne, the Dakota Sioux, and Arapaho banded together on the Little Big Horn and waited for Custer. They knew he was coming, had left warning signs as they traveled to their planned camp. Custer's Crow guides found the signs and warned him that to go on would mean death, but Custer ignored them and moved toward his fate.

    A sigue: In 1868, in the dead of a snowy November, Custer and his men killed an entire village of Cheyenne camped on the Washita River (near present day Cheyenne, OK). He went back to headquarters and bragged about how many men he killed, when in reality the warriors of the village were not even there, and Custer actually slaughtered old men, women, and children. As a result the Cheyenne cursed him, telling him that if he ever made war against them again they would butcher him. And at the Little Big Horn they did so.

    After the battle was won, the tribes fled and hid in mountain caves, but hunger forced them to surrender to the USA Army and they were placed on reservations where the land was stony and life was bitter.

    They rose again at Wounded Knee, but were overtaken.

    Crazy Horse was murdered at Fort Robinson on September 5, 1877.

    Geronimo of the Apache was the last hold out to the West and finally surrendered in 1886.

    Sitting Bull was murdered at the Pine Ridge reservation on December 15, 1890 and the West was lost.
    Last edited by cindyt; 01-23-2009 at 09:34 PM.
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  4. #4
    djdeath-hag Guest
    Thank you, Cindy, for this glimpse into your heritage. While my own roots are not native to N. America, I've always had a very soft spot for those who were here before Europeans invaded & took over.

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    I might get flamed for this, but they're the only true, 'native' Americans! The rest of us are transplants from somewhere. Cool post, Cindy.
    The most dangerous woman of all is the one who refuses to rely on your sword to save her because she carries her own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessa View Post
    I might get flamed for this, but they're the only true, 'native' Americans! The rest of us are transplants from somewhere. Cool post, Cindy.
    Here's a bit of irony. Native Americans came here from across the Far East, through Europe, following the great mamouth across the land bridge that once covered the Bering Sea. They lived first in what became Alaska and eventually migrated south to our lower states, and into Mexico and on down to Central and South America.
    Last edited by cindyt; 01-23-2009 at 09:28 PM.
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    I know all this but re reading it does just hit you extremely hard. I'm 1/4 native american, enrolled in Washington state...I wasnt raised in the "traditional" life and I always feel a little...out of place at ceremonies or 'traditional' funerals because most people dont believe I am "one of them" mostly white...mistaken constantly as hispanic. Pretty much dont fit. There are so many traditions that I know but dont understand the meaning of (and its like this for a lot of us) and there are dwindling numbers of people who can explain it...teach it to anyone.

    Even as close as my grandmother's generation had been affected by mission "schools", being drug away from their families...beaten for speaking the only language they knew and being told they were heathens because they werent Christian.

    Terrible injustices have been inflicted and never accounted for.
    Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them. ~Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama

  8. #8
    Nerak Guest
    thank u for this post. it is stuff I learnt, and somewhat digested, but it is ALWAYS good to re-learn

  9. #9
    Albertadude Guest
    Yeah sorry to buck the trend here though but AIM is hardly considered to be totally honest and partial as a source..slightly to the far left and that is being generous...Russel Means is about as trustworthy as the happily late Yasser Arafat or people of that ilk....and genocide is too little of a strong term here....there was never a deliberate plot to wipe out Indians in North America...whilst their were local miltary and civic leaders that may have plotted to do horrible things to local tribes, their is no evidence whatsoever for this inflammatory and dishonest charge..

    Save it for the Armenians, Jews and Cambodians...people that truly were victimized by genocide...

    Both the Red man and White man did horrible things to one another ...this was hardly a one sided battle....before the European's arrived, the Red Man was busy slaughtering one another and enslaving one another and in some cases, even human sacrifices...in other words, they were as much rotten as the rest of us....to this day, there are Indian tribes that can't stand one another...

    Sorry but I can't stand revisionist history...and for the record, yes I have some Native Blood too...indeed, most people in North America do...

    For another take on the treatment of Natives, visit this Comanche's website...he is definately not politically correct and hated by the Liberals, Red and White...

    http://www.badeagle.com/

    It will at least give you a more honest view of history then the usual nonsense served up by liberal academia....

  10. #10
    kimba Guest
    Albertadude, I too have Native ancestory..

    have you read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee?

    You should.
    I have read it 3 times. And each time it haunts me- what was done.
    women, children killed.Their private parts made into hat bands.

    There was a concentrated effort to remove Indian Peoples from their lands. The fallout of this that these people were transplanted into harsh inhospitable lands in the middle of winter. They had no chance.
    They were viewed as savages- less than human. There is historical evidence that there was an effort to kill as many as possible.
    Revisionist history? How about finally telling the truth of what happened?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimba View Post
    Albertadude, I too have Native ancestory..

    have you read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee?

    You should.
    I have read it 3 times. And each time it haunts me- what was done.
    women, children killed.Their private parts made into hat bands.

    There was a concentrated effort to remove Indian Peoples from their lands. The fallout of this that these people were transplanted into harsh inhospitable lands in the middle of winter. They had no chance.
    They were viewed as savages- less than human. There is historical evidence that there was an effort to kill as many as possible.
    Revisionist history? How about finally telling the truth of what happened?
    Amen! Could not have said it better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albertadude View Post
    Yeah sorry to buck the trend here though but AIM is hardly considered to be totally honest and partial as a source..slightly to the far left and that is being generous...Russel Means is about as trustworthy as the happily late Yasser Arafat or people of that ilk....and genocide is too little of a strong term here....there was never a deliberate plot to wipe out Indians in North America...whilst their were local miltary and civic leaders that may have plotted to do horrible things to local tribes, their is no evidence whatsoever for this inflammatory and dishonest charge..

    Save it for the Armenians, Jews and Cambodians...people that truly were victimized by genocide...

    Both the Red man and White man did horrible things to one another ...this was hardly a one sided battle....before the European's arrived, the Red Man was busy slaughtering one another and enslaving one another and in some cases, even human sacrifices...in other words, they were as much rotten as the rest of us....to this day, there are Indian tribes that can't stand one another...

    Sorry but I can't stand revisionist history...and for the record, yes I have some Native Blood too...indeed, most people in North America do...

    For another take on the treatment of Natives, visit this Comanche's website...he is definately not politically correct and hated by the Liberals, Red and White...

    http://www.badeagle.com/

    It will at least give you a more honest view of history then the usual nonsense served up by liberal academia....
    You are the Revisionist here. Call me a blackwasher if you wish, I've been called a lot worse. Truth is, I believe in telling it like it is. I have no need to lie. I also did not get my info from liberal academia. I got it from researhing books with the white and Indian viewpoints. Non political books, BTW. Plus I have connections and I don't mean AIM, which I am proud to be a part of. It is a show of support for my people, and I frankly don't give a flying fuck what anyone thinks about it, including the US government. I am not a leftist, a terrorist, nor do I plan on shooting any FBI agents, or scalping anyone. I am just as proud as my Irish, French blood, and, hey, my dad's people were bloody Texas outlaws. Go Texas!

    I also am aware that wrongs were committed by Red and White.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albertadude View Post
    Yeah sorry to buck the trend here though but AIM is hardly considered to be totally honest and partial as a source..slightly to the far left and that is being generous...Russel Means is about as trustworthy as the happily late Yasser Arafat or people of that ilk....and genocide is too little of a strong term here....there was never a deliberate plot to wipe out Indians in North America...whilst their were local miltary and civic leaders that may have plotted to do horrible things to local tribes, their is no evidence whatsoever for this inflammatory and dishonest charge..

    Save it for the Armenians, Jews and Cambodians...people that truly were victimized by genocide...

    Both the Red man and White man did horrible things to one another ...this was hardly a one sided battle....before the European's arrived, the Red Man was busy slaughtering one another and enslaving one another and in some cases, even human sacrifices...in other words, they were as much rotten as the rest of us....to this day, there are Indian tribes that can't stand one another...

    Sorry but I can't stand revisionist history...and for the record, yes I have some Native Blood too...indeed, most people in North America do...

    For another take on the treatment of Natives, visit this Comanche's website...he is definately not politically correct and hated by the Liberals, Red and White...

    http://www.badeagle.com/

    It will at least give you a more honest view of history then the usual nonsense served up by liberal academia....
    You of course are entitled to your opinion, but may I ask, what exactly is posted here that is not factual?
    And why is David Yeagley a more reliable source than anyone else? Because he is conservative? He is not even a real Comanche. He was adopted and enrolled in the Nation accidentally because his stepmother was a Comanche and Comanche tradition does not allow for banishing anyone.
    The term I see most often associated with Yeagley is white supremacist.
    If you've the stomach to visit a certain white supremacy site, and search his name, he is all over the place and many of those folks are members of his website. So no thanks, Albertadude, I'll get my history elsewhere.
    Last edited by Ima Sikfuk; 04-10-2009 at 11:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ima Sikfuk View Post
    You of course are entitled to your opinion, but may I ask, what exactly is posted here that is not factual?
    And why is David Yeagley a more reliable source than anyone else? Because he is conservative? He is not even a real Comanche. He was adopted and enrolled in the Nation accidently because his stepmother was a Comanche and Comanche tradition does not allow for banishing anyone.
    The word I see most often associate with Yeagley is white supremacist.
    If you've the stomach to visit a certain white supremacy site, and search his name, he is all over the place and many of those folks are members of his website. So no thanks, Albertadude, I'll get my history elsewhere.
    Bingo! Thanks, Ima!
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    a quote from an essay I read...

    "Our culture, the American culture - and indeed the world culture - constantly propagates and perpetuates the stereotypical - and totally false - image of American Indians as backward, savage, brutal, uncivilized beings to this day. Talk to the people who are not natives, who live near any of the many reservations throughout North America - and you'll hear comments very similar to those heard throughout America prior to Martin Luther King... but directed at the American Indians... the "injuns," "drunken red men," the "uncivilized savages" who brutally murdered settlers...
    Many will object, saying "but they were savage and brutal, not only fighting among themselves, warring with each other and more; but they were even more savage and brutal to the settlers!" - and use that as a justification for suppression and brutalization of American Indian culture and people.
    Yes; those charges are indeed true -
    But don't forget too that the settlers - with very few exceptions - were making a concerted effort, with the help of the American government, to completely wipe out the Native Americans.
    Don't forget that the American government - and by extension, the American people - broke every single last one of the over 350 treaties signed with the American Indians; pushing the American Indians off into unwanted and unusable land - barren reservations - out of site and out of mind.
    I challenge you to look at every other culture on this planet. Which nation has not been guilty of warring against their neighbors? Which culture has not at one time or another been guilty of horrendous atrocities against their fellow man? Which people have not fought fiercely, desperately against invaders to defend their own way of life?
    The Romans against Carthage, the Gauls against Rome, Vikings and Gaels and Scotts and Eires and Mongols and Chinese; the War of the Roses and all the religious jihads of the centuries; the modern gang turf wars and the strife in Ireland; the pro-lifers against the pro-choicers: No culture is innocent; no people is innocent."
    Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them. ~Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama

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    Quote Originally Posted by bit_evil1 View Post
    a quote from an essay I read...

    "Our culture, the American culture - and indeed the world culture - constantly propagates and perpetuates the stereotypical - and totally false - image of American Indians as backward, savage, brutal, uncivilized beings to this day. Talk to the people who are not natives, who live near any of the many reservations throughout North America - and you'll hear comments very similar to those heard throughout America prior to Martin Luther King... but directed at the American Indians... the "injuns," "drunken red men," the "uncivilized savages" who brutally murdered settlers...
    Many will object, saying "but they were savage and brutal, not only fighting among themselves, warring with each other and more; but they were even more savage and brutal to the settlers!" - and use that as a justification for suppression and brutalization of American Indian culture and people.
    Yes; those charges are indeed true -
    But don't forget too that the settlers - with very few exceptions - were making a concerted effort, with the help of the American government, to completely wipe out the Native Americans.
    Don't forget that the American government - and by extension, the American people - broke every single last one of the over 350 treaties signed with the American Indians; pushing the American Indians off into unwanted and unusable land - barren reservations - out of site and out of mind.
    I challenge you to look at every other culture on this planet. Which nation has not been guilty of warring against their neighbors? Which culture has not at one time or another been guilty of horrendous atrocities against their fellow man? Which people have not fought fiercely, desperately against invaders to defend their own way of life?
    The Romans against Carthage, the Gauls against Rome, Vikings and Gaels and Scotts and Eires and Mongols and Chinese; the War of the Roses and all the religious jihads of the centuries; the modern gang turf wars and the strife in Ireland; the pro-lifers against the pro-choicers: No culture is innocent; no people is innocent."
    The absolute truth.

    And I do not feel guilty for what my Red ancestors did to my white ancestors or vice verse, no more than I feel guilty about slavery or North vs. South. I was not alive then and am not responsible for what happened. The only responsibility I have--and you have--is to treat everyone as the decent human being they are, no matter who they are (except for the monsters among us, natch). And it is also our responsibilty to NOT forget the sins of our fathers so that those sins will not be repeated.
    Last edited by cindyt; 01-24-2009 at 01:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    The absolute truth.

    And I do not feel guilty for what my Red ancestors did to my white ancestors or vice verse, no more than I feel guilty about slavery or North vs. South. I was not alive then and am not responsible for what happened. The only responsibility I have--and you have--is to treat everyone as the decent human being they are, no matter who they are (except for the monsters among us, natch). And it is also our responsibilty to NOT forget the sins of our fathers so that those sins will not be repeated.
    I agree completely
    Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them. ~Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama

  18. #18
    kimba Guest
    By the way- I would like to point out here,also, that the Native people did not start the barbaric practice of scalping, that it was in fact started- by the British...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimba View Post
    By the way- I would like to point out here,also, that the Native people did not start the barbaric practice of scalping, that it was in fact started- by the British...
    Fact.
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  20. #20
    crescentia Guest
    I am part Mohawk on my dad's side(I think I'm possibly a 1/8) and Blackfoot on my mom's side, ancestor was a fur trapper and 'married' a Blackfoot woman. Also my boyfriend is 1/4 Sioux.

    Frankly I am insulted by Albertadude's statement. There wasn't a deliberate plot to wipe out Native Americans? Oh please. What about Manifest Destiny? Giving blankets filled with smallpox germs to villages, the saying 'The only good Indian is a dead Indian'? Just because there wasn't a Wannasee type conference to discuss killing all of them doesn't mean that genocide didn't happen. Give me a break.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albertadude View Post
    Yeah sorry to buck the trend here though but AIM is hardly considered to be totally honest and partial as a source..slightly to the far left and that is being generous...Russel Means is about as trustworthy as the happily late Yasser Arafat or people of that ilk....and genocide is too little of a strong term here....there was never a deliberate plot to wipe out Indians in North America...whilst their were local miltary and civic leaders that may have plotted to do horrible things to local tribes, their is no evidence whatsoever for this inflammatory and dishonest charge..

    Save it for the Armenians, Jews and Cambodians...people that truly were victimized by genocide...

    Both the Red man and White man did horrible things to one another ...this was hardly a one sided battle....before the European's arrived, the Red Man was busy slaughtering one another and enslaving one another and in some cases, even human sacrifices...in other words, they were as much rotten as the rest of us....to this day, there are Indian tribes that can't stand one another...

    Sorry but I can't stand revisionist history...and for the record, yes I have some Native Blood too...indeed, most people in North America do...

    For another take on the treatment of Natives, visit this Comanche's website...he is definately not politically correct and hated by the Liberals, Red and White...

    http://www.badeagle.com/

    It will at least give you a more honest view of history then the usual nonsense served up by liberal academia....
    This David Yeagley fella seems to have his own agenda here. I don't see what he writes as balanced.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by crescentia View Post
    I am part Mohawk on my dad's side(I think I'm possibly a 1/8) and Blackfoot on my mom's side, ancestor was a fur trapper and 'married' a Blackfoot woman. Also my boyfriend is 1/4 Sioux.

    Frankly I am insulted by Albertadude's statement. There wasn't a deliberate plot to wipe out Native Americans? Oh please. What about Manifest Destiny? Giving blankets filled with smallpox germs to villages, the saying 'The only good Indian is a dead Indian'? Just because there wasn't a Wannasee type conference to discuss killing all of them doesn't mean that genocide didn't happen. Give me a break.
    I like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by neilmpenny View Post
    This David Yeagley fella seems to have his own agenda here. I don't see what he writes as balanced.
    Like you too, Neil.
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  23. #23
    Shano Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Albertadude View Post
    their is no evidence whatsoever for this inflammatory and dishonest charge..


    It will at least give you a more honest view of history then the usual nonsense served up by liberal academia....

    Here is some honesty for ya.... google Andrew Jackson and the Indian Removal Act.... then tell me if there is no evidence that the white men in this country didn't have a full and total PLAN to remove Native Americans from this country. And this is just ONE example of what happened.

    As far as all of the other victims of genocide... I am full of anger reguarding their situation too! But don't act like genocide has not happened here. Human flesh has been sold in front of our capitol in D.C. Human flesh has been burned, hanged and tortured in front of our capitol in D.C. Women, men and children of color (and this does not mean just African American) have been slaugtered in this country in huge numbers that we will never truly know.

    Do you believe that we should never speak of what happened to Native Americans in the country?! How about never speaking of the Women's Rights Movement?! Or the Civil Rights Movement?! Children and adults should never learn our history?! Never learn what it was like before?! cough *bullshit* cough

  24. #24
    tarsier Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    Dedicated to my dear friend Michael River Fox

    Americans who have always looked westward when reading
    about this period should read this book facing eastward.
    --Dee Brown, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee

    Introduction

    Hello, my name is CindyT and I am a member of the American Indian Movement (AIM).

    My great grandfather, GT Standridge (Anglecized from Stand Ridge), was 3/4 Cherokee and his wife was Irish-Cherokee. One of her ancestors married General George Crook who fought Crazy Horse at the Battle of the Rosebud not many days before Crazy Horse wiped out General George Armstrong Custer and the 7th Cavalry. So, you see I am betwix the two--1/16 Cherokee with an Indian fighter in the family, ironic, that.

    I was not raised in the Native American life. One reason is my ancestors fled to North Carolina during The Trail of Tears and became Anglicized, farmers, preachers, writers, teachers, and a puglist--John L. Sullivan. Yet my Indian blood has always called out to me and I have done a heap of research, mostly about what happened in the West, I guess, because it was the end times. Yet, in my readings, thanks to Bury My Heat at Wounded Knee by Dee Brown, I discovered that to understand what happened in the West you must turn and look at what happened first in the East.

    No man is an island, nor can any society live forever in a vacuum. To wit: if a society refuses to progress it is doomed. For example, the Cheyenne were not always a western tribe. They originated in the Lakes region of Canada and eventually migrated southward into Minnesota before heading West. This tribe changed very little from point A to B to C. The first big change was using dogs instead of women for pack animals. Then they discovered and got horses and then the gun.

    A failure to change does not excuse what happened to the Native Americans, for there is no excuse for evil. And yes I do mean evil, because when you set out to destroy a people because of who they are--their color, their religion, their way of life, etc., it is evil doings.
    This will get me slapped down but my family on Mom's side descended from the Navajo and Conquistadors so that would make me Mexican technically although her ancestors are North of that line as opposed to the Hope.
    Sorry I have a REAL problem with these tribes. They came to his country like 6-10 thousand years ago before the Egyptians rose to their glory rought six-thousand yerars back. Well before the Romans and Western European Civilization, before the Mongols; what the hell were they doing with themselves in all that time?
    Stone weapons, clay pots Natives in Africa had Metal tipped spears before the Whites got there the Chinese had working bombs by 700 A.D. and where were the Native Americans 700 years later when Columbus arrived? They faught constantly among themselves yet no one built a better mousetrap so to speak? We, this country had plenty of natural resources which could have been developed defensively.
    My mother eliminated my Hispanic ancestry from my background. Dad dropped an African American brought home as a wife from the Civil War. When asked I say I descended from the Chinese (they did have bombs) rather than being from around here (this country).
    I have this image of my ancestors; "today class, we will learn metal working by making a bracelet..."
    I'm not saying it was right but it was natural selection at work.

  25. #25
    crescentia Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by tarsier View Post
    This will get me slapped down but my family on Mom's side descended from the Navajo and Conquistadors so that would make me Mexican technically although her ancestors are North of that line as opposed to the Hope.
    Sorry I have a REAL problem with these tribes. They came to his country like 6-10 thousand years ago before the Egyptians rose to their glory rought six-thousand yerars back. Well before the Romans and Western European Civilization, before the Mongols; what the hell were they doing with themselves in all that time?
    Stone weapons, clay pots Natives in Africa had Metal tipped spears before the Whites got there the Chinese had working bombs by 700 A.D. and where were the Native Americans 700 years later when Columbus arrived? They faught constantly among themselves yet no one built a better mousetrap so to speak? We, this country had plenty of natural resources which could have been developed defensively.
    My mother eliminated my Hispanic ancestry from my background. Dad dropped an African American brought home as a wife from the Civil War. When asked I say I descended from the Chinese (they did have bombs) rather than being from around here (this country).
    I have this image of my ancestors; "today class, we will learn metal working by making a bracelet..."
    I'm not saying it was right but it was natural selection at work.
    Read the book Guns, Germs, And Steel. It explains why civilization was more 'advanced' in certain parts of the world than others. The Americas didn't have the horse or the cow. The lack of domesticated animals held the Americas back in terms of advancing civilization. Then again, is the advance of a civilization always a good thing? Just because the Americas didn't have everything the Europeans/Chinese/India/Middle East had doesn't mean that they were a lesser people. I would never be ashamed of my ancestry.

  26. #26
    Adiposeur Guest
    Cindy (and the rest of you with Native blood) do you have your CDIB card? We are Cherokee (and Choctaw) but can only prove heritage to the Cherokee side on the rolls. My husband was born in the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma.

    If you do have any Native blood (and even if you don't) I highly recommend going to the tribe websites and reading the history sections to find great sources for books and DVD's that tell the real stories. I am particularly interested in Cherokee culture and history and love to go poke around the museum and talk to the historians whenever I'm back to visit the inlaws.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adiposeur View Post
    Cindy (and the rest of you with Native blood) do you have your CDIB card? We are Cherokee (and Choctaw) but can only prove heritage to the Cherokee side on the rolls. My husband was born in the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma.

    If you do have any Native blood (and even if you don't) I highly recommend going to the tribe websites and reading the history sections to find great sources for books and DVD's that tell the real stories. I am particularly interested in Cherokee culture and history and love to go poke around the museum and talk to the historians whenever I'm back to visit the inlaws.
    I do, I've had my BIA card/cert for many years now, it's a good thing to have to trace your people. My Grandmother was Hopi and my Grandfather was Kumeyaay. I try to preserve what I can for my son. It's important that he know his people and what hapend to them and what they are doing now to improve the community. I do get sad reading old stories.

  28. #28
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    You know...Im unsure what a CDIB card is. I have an enrollment card, and I'm supposed to go get one with my picture on it but I havent made it up there in quite a few years, since my grandmothers death...and I dont know when i will again. But yeah I have paper work with proof of decendency and enrollment...other than that its greek to me
    Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them. ~Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shano View Post
    Here is some honesty for ya.... google Andrew Jackson and the Indian Removal Act.... then tell me if there is no evidence that the white men in this country didn't have a full and total PLAN to remove Native Americans from this country. And this is just ONE example of what happened.

    As far as all of the other victims of genocide... I am full of anger reguarding their situation too! But don't act like genocide has not happened here. Human flesh has been sold in front of our capitol in D.C. Human flesh has been burned, hanged and tortured in front of our capitol in D.C. Women, men and children of color (and this does not mean just African American) have been slaugtered in this country in huge numbers that we will never truly know.

    Do you believe that we should never speak of what happened to Native Americans in the country?! How about never speaking of the Women's Rights Movement?! Or the Civil Rights Movement?! Children and adults should never learn our history?! Never learn what it was like before?! cough *bullshit* cough
    There are so many people like this person you are addressing...if its not denying one form of mistreatment its another...like the freaks who deny the jewish holocaust...they say inflammatory things because they for one reason or another feel the need to...I have no understanding of these people and I dont want one....to understand would mean being of similar mind...I'm definitely not up for that.
    Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them. ~Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama

  30. #30
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    I thought the exact thing when I read his post--that it was like some people deny there was a Jewish Holocaust.

    I not only have proof of my Cherokee blood I have seen pics of my people. You know those pics in history books of Indians and their long braids standing side by side? My great grandfather and great grandmother had framed photos like that hanging on their walls of our people. Plus a cousin did a trace and made copies of data and pics and sent a packet to their daughter, my grandmother. I have none of this in my possession and since they are all dead, I do not know what happened to any of it. I'll have to ask my only living aunt if she has it or if she can put me with the cousin who gathered the info. If I get ahold of it I will most def post the pics.

    Like I said earlier, my Cherokee people were assimulated to the white way of life and they did not make a whole lot of noise about their Indian blood. I don't know why, unless it was because that who they were and didn't think it was a big deal.
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  31. #31
    endsleigh03 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by bit_evil1 View Post
    There are so many people like this person you are addressing...if its not denying one form of mistreatment its another...like the freaks who deny the jewish holocaust...they say inflammatory things because they for one reason or another feel the need to...I have no understanding of these people and I dont want one....to understand would mean being of similar mind...I'm definitely not up for that.
    Bingo.

    Cindy, thanks for starting this thread.

  32. #32
    Boopassing Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    The absolute truth.

    And I do not feel guilty for what my Red ancestors did to my white ancestors or vice verse, no more than I feel guilty about slavery or North vs. South. I was not alive then and am not responsible for what happened. The only responsibility I have--and you have--is to treat everyone as the decent human being they are, no matter who they are (except for the monsters among us, natch). And it is also our responsibilty to NOT forget the sins of our fathers so that those sins will not be repeated.

    Very well said. If only everyone could feel this way. Unfortunately, we carry crap from generation to generation, and we hand crap down through generations.

    I am Wyandot and Cherokee. I didn't get the great cheekbones, but I got the stick straight dark hair. My great grandmother was 100% Cherokee. I have one picture of her and man, she was a big scary looking woman, LOL. My father raised us rich in the history of the Native Americans. He does leather and bead work, he has forged and built his own weapons, carved his own powderhorn, and wears moccasins. He is massively educated about the Native American history in this country, and has literally hundreds of books on the subject. The irony is, he doesn't have a drop of Indian blood in him, it's all from my mom's side. He just loves the rich history.

    I love that you hear your Native American blood sing. That is very, very cool Cindy. I feel mine when I am in the woods.

  33. #33
    lilangel54701 Guest
    I'm 1/8th+ Ojibwe and was totally unaware in most respects about my heritage until I went into college. I am now working on a masters in History with an emphasis in Native American history. I love learning about the history of my ancestors since I'm able to trace my roots all the way back into the fur trade era.

    What we need to realize is that every part and history of how each tribe is completely different. Yes, some European settlers and Native Tribes were warring with one another and did horrible things to one another. We also have other tribes and Europeans and later, Americans helping each other out with both getting a beneficial relationship. The book, The Middle Ground by Richard White gives an amazing discussion about the relationship between our early settlers and Native history.

    Many people brought up the fact that there are "broken treaties" but what should be realized is that some of those treaties were created in the hopes of fixing "the indian problem." It wasn't just a whole "let's wipe out an entire people" for the most part in the treaty making era. It was a effort to get the land and through the work of missionaries to Christianize and "civilize" the Indians. They wanted them to become farmers and to subside on their own with the reparations from the treaties. When initial treaties didn't work, they would try and negotiate new ones, which typically led to ones that set up the reservation system. The Treaty of 1854 with the Chippewa was one of the first to do so rather than more removal. Many of the whites in Northern Wisconsin were against removal due to an earlier attempt and many of the Ojibwe died along the way.

    I'm not saying that this was right in any way but it was better than the initial ideas of killing outright. We just need to understand that we can't lump all of the experiences together of all Native Americans. It's different for everyone.

  34. #34
    michael d Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by lilangel54701 View Post
    I'm 1/8th+ Ojibwe and was totally unaware in most respects about my heritage until I went into college. I am now working on a masters in History with an emphasis in Native American history. I love learning about the history of my ancestors since I'm able to trace my roots all the way back into the fur trade era.

    What we need to realize is that every part and history of how each tribe is completely different. Yes, some European settlers and Native Tribes were warring with one another and did horrible things to one another. We also have other tribes and Europeans and later, Americans helping each other out with both getting a beneficial relationship. The book, The Middle Ground by Richard White gives an amazing discussion about the relationship between our early settlers and Native history.

    Many people brought up the fact that there are "broken treaties" but what should be realized is that some of those treaties were created in the hopes of fixing "the indian problem." It wasn't just a whole "let's wipe out an entire people" for the most part in the treaty making era. It was a effort to get the land and through the work of missionaries to Christianize and "civilize" the Indians. They wanted them to become farmers and to subside on their own with the reparations from the treaties. When initial treaties didn't work, they would try and negotiate new ones, which typically led to ones that set up the reservation system. The Treaty of 1854 with the Chippewa was one of the first to do so rather than more removal. Many of the whites in Northern Wisconsin were against removal due to an earlier attempt and many of the Ojibwe died along the way.

    I'm not saying that this was right in any way but it was better than the initial ideas of killing outright. We just need to understand that we can't lump all of the experiences together of all Native Americans. It's different for everyone.
    A great book to consider is Desert Indian Woman.

    http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/books/BID1396.htm

    Its about the life of a Tohono O'odham woman, Frances Manuel, through much of the 20th century. . . pretty much up to the present. As a lot of books cover the history treaties and other large issues, the book is an autobiographical account of woman and her family through a very transitional time. 'Native American' covers a lot of ground and the history of the O'odham is a little different than other tribes as they were far more isolated. Its an excellent read and is more personable than say a history book.
    Last edited by michael d; 01-25-2009 at 01:33 PM.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilangel54701 View Post
    I'm 1/8th+ Ojibwe and was totally unaware in most respects about my heritage until I went into college. I am now working on a masters in History with an emphasis in Native American history. I love learning about the history of my ancestors since I'm able to trace my roots all the way back into the fur trade era.

    What we need to realize is that every part and history of how each tribe is completely different. Yes, some European settlers and Native Tribes were warring with one another and did horrible things to one another. We also have other tribes and Europeans and later, Americans helping each other out with both getting a beneficial relationship. The book, The Middle Ground by Richard White gives an amazing discussion about the relationship between our early settlers and Native history.

    Many people brought up the fact that there are "broken treaties" but what should be realized is that some of those treaties were created in the hopes of fixing "the indian problem." It wasn't just a whole "let's wipe out an entire people" for the most part in the treaty making era. It was a effort to get the land and through the work of missionaries to Christianize and "civilize" the Indians. They wanted them to become farmers and to subside on their own with the reparations from the treaties. When initial treaties didn't work, they would try and negotiate new ones, which typically led to ones that set up the reservation system. The Treaty of 1854 with the Chippewa was one of the first to do so rather than more removal. Many of the whites in Northern Wisconsin were against removal due to an earlier attempt and many of the Ojibwe died along the way.

    I'm not saying that this was right in any way but it was better than the initial ideas of killing outright. We just need to understand that we can't lump all of the experiences together of all Native Americans. It's different for everyone.
    I find it interesting that you refer to it as "the indian problem" but the problem was they didnt want to be brought into the european way of life and they WERE able to survive in and of their own abillity. The problem was that the europeans wanted ALL the land and the native americans didnt want to give up the only life they ever knew...who would? I know you're not saying its right but you fail to mention these points and thats why people are upset about the "broken treaties" you spoke about.
    Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them. ~Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama

  36. #36
    michael d Guest
    "The Indian problem" is a historical reference. Certainly many of the treaties and relocations had to do with obtaining prime arable land. Its interesting that many point to having a Native American ancestor. A strategy at one point in dealing with "the Indian problem" was the idea of intermarriage.

    I think that this is one of the better threads on the board. Its a difficult conversation as the history is complex and the groups that make up what we refer to as the American Indian are numerous numbering in the hundreds and have very unique histories and cultures. The pan American Indian identity is one that has evolved and isn't necessarily embraced by all.

    For me, a great deal was learned through learning about the history of the Indian schools and getting a broad overview of the history of proselythizing in North American whether it was Jesuits and Franciscans in the southwest, Russian Orthodoxy in Alaska, Mormons , etc. . .

    Thanks for the thread, Cindyt.
    Last edited by michael d; 01-25-2009 at 03:53 PM.

  37. #37
    lilangel54701 Guest
    I'd like to say thanks for this thread as well. It's good to see that there are people aware of what happened to the Native Americans and what the differing viewpoints are. I used to graduate assist for an intro to Native American history class and it was interesting to see the number of college students that were not aware of the history of these people.

    Yes, the term "indian problem" is one that comes up in the history. It's thrown about in not only original sources by the government but also in those who are writing the history of Native peoples.

    It's interesting to see how many people focus on just the European side of assimilation and acculturation. The British and Spanish were horrible in how they treated the Native Americans. Most of the French, however, were able to be able to work with the Native American communities and both benefited from each other in different ways. After the removal of European influence, he United States government was just as bad in determining policies on how to move on the land and take over.

    The intermarriage thing is also an interesting side note. It's interesting to see how there were actual divides in the communities concerning full bloods and mixed bloods, which is something that was actually wanted in the long run. Blood quantum is still a part of the history that is resonating today.

  38. #38
    Taggerez Guest
    First off, I am a native American because I was born here as were my ancestors going back to 1746 Virginia and probably further.

    The American Indian engaged in many acts that we condemn in others: brutal warfare, slavery, rape, imperialism, torture, racism among other things. Their treatment of captives could be utterly goulish from scalping to peeling off the skin while alive to burning alive to all other manners of wretched "entertainment." The Aztecs built an entire civilization on human sacrifice

    Europeans tried to develop and adhere to rules for war that seperated soldiers from civilians and moved the battlefield away from urban centers; Indians practiced "total war" that aimed at destroying whole tribes forever. The word for that is genocide.

    The pre-Columbian residents of North America were too primitive to have been fully environmentally aware. The buffalo is an example of this. Indians did not overkill the buffalo themselves because their populations were too small to do so. It was demographics, not wisdom, that made them eco-friendly. environmentalism is a pastime of comfortable societies, not those engaged in subsistence survival. There is good evidence, however, that Indians hunted to extinction several large Ice Age mammals, nearly eradicated certain populations of deer and beaver, and burned out millions of acres of forests to improve agriculture and game.

    Indians, like whites, were not saints just humans.

  39. 01-25-2009, 05:17 PM

  40. #39
    MorbidMolly Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Shano View Post
    Here is some honesty for ya.... google Andrew Jackson and the Indian Removal Act.... then tell me if there is no evidence that the white men in this country didn't have a full and total PLAN to remove Native Americans from this country. And this is just ONE example of what happened.

    As far as all of the other victims of genocide... I am full of anger reguarding their situation too! But don't act like genocide has not happened here. Human flesh has been sold in front of our capitol in D.C. Human flesh has been burned, hanged and tortured in front of our capitol in D.C. Women, men and children of color (and this does not mean just African American) have been slaugtered in this country in huge numbers that we will never truly know.

    Do you believe that we should never speak of what happened to Native Americans in the country?! How about never speaking of the Women's Rights Movement?! Or the Civil Rights Movement?! Children and adults should never learn our history?! Never learn what it was like before?! cough *bullshit* cough

    DAMN FINE POST...........BRAVO......there was an author on one of my shows the other day ( don`t ask me who because once I ascertained what his book was about I tuned out ), who`s book was extrolling the virtures of Andrew Jackson, while saying nothing of his absolute hatred and disregard for the Native Americans.....since becoming an adult and reading on my history ( mother Cherokee father Irish ), and not the tripe taught in school, I haven`t been able to stand the man.....no matter what else he may have accomplished, the hyprocrisy behind it makes me sick

  41. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taggerez View Post
    First off, I am a native American because I was born here as were my ancestors going back to 1746 Virginia and probably further.

    The American Indian engaged in many acts that we condemn in others: brutal warfare, slavery, rape, imperialism, torture, racism among other things. Their treatment of captives could be utterly goulish from scalping to peeling off the skin while alive to burning alive to all other manners of wretched "entertainment." The Aztecs built an entire civilization on human sacrifice

    Europeans tried to develop and adhere to rules for war that seperated soldiers from civilians and moved the battlefield away from urban centers; Indians practiced "total war" that aimed at destroying whole tribes forever. The word for that is genocide.

    The pre-Columbian residents of North America were too primitive to have been fully environmentally aware. The buffalo is an example of this. Indians did not overkill the buffalo themselves because their populations were too small to do so. It was demographics, not wisdom, that made them eco-friendly. environmentalism is a pastime of comfortable societies, not those engaged in subsistence survival. There is good evidence, however, that Indians hunted to extinction several large Ice Age mammals, nearly eradicated certain populations of deer and beaver, and burned out millions of acres of forests to improve agriculture and game.

    Indians, like whites, were not saints just humans.
    lmao...we've covered most of this and what would you know of the wisdom behind what they did..they continually used everything from any animal they killed nothing WASTED...they didnt kill more than they needed...unlike others did and still do. No one said the american indians were innocent...I actually quoted an essay that says they werent straight off...what you wrote here is not only not the point, it is completely ignorant.
    Last edited by bit_evil1; 01-25-2009 at 06:29 PM.
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  42. #41
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    History is nothing more than viewpoints. And there are no absolutes in innocence and guilt.

    If there was an Indian problem, then by cracky there was also a White problem. Land grabbers vs a people who could not wrap their mind around someone owning the ground men walked on. Simple as that, really. Treaties were broken by both peoples in a tight tug of war in a huge open wide land where all could have lived in peace. But neither would give, though some tried. while others didn't give two shits.

    This was a primative people and their ways were primative in dealing with the enemy. But the white man was supposed to be civilized and humane, but don't tell me wiping out an entire village of old men, women, and children is civilized because it is not. Is making tobacca pouches out of an Indian woman's private part civilized? HA! The cry of the day was The only good Indian is a dead Indian, and they called Indian children nits.

    Laying all the blame on the Indian, saying there was no deliberate punt to destroy the Red man, or to whitewash it, to say none of this happened is white power speaking,

    BTW, I do not claim to have Cherokee blood--it's a fucking fact.
    Last edited by cindyt; 01-25-2009 at 07:31 PM.
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  43. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taggerez View Post

    The American Indian engaged in many acts that we condemn in others: brutal warfare, slavery, rape, imperialism, torture, racism among other things. Their treatment of captives could be utterly goulish from scalping to peeling off the skin while alive to burning alive to all other manners of wretched "entertainment." The Aztecs built an entire civilization on human sacrifice
    It was their culture, as other people have theirs. Ever heard of the Crusades? The Spanish Inquisition? Ever read the bio of Sir William Wallace how he was drawn and quartered, sliced and diced, his privates cut off, and his head hung on a stake for all to see? Ever heard of how the British, French, and American soldiers chopped up each other during the wars? Ever heard of the Salem witch hunt, where convicted witches were burnt at the stake? It goes on and on and on and on. To point your finger at a people and call them ghoulish in their dealings with ememies and captives is the pot calling the kettle black.
    Last edited by cindyt; 01-25-2009 at 07:50 PM.
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  44. #43
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    Welcome to everyone who thanked me for this thread. Vamp and I were discussing General George Armstrong Custer on the Civil war thread and my Cherokee blood started singing. I wrote it in a fever, knowing it wasn't possible to cover everything, and I appreciate those of you who added what I failed to include.
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  45. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taggerez View Post
    Europeans tried to develop and adhere to rules for war that seperated soldiers from civilians and moved the battlefield away from urban centers;
    One of the more laughable things I have read on this forum.
    Last edited by Ima Sikfuk; 01-25-2009 at 08:23 PM.
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    Fact: more whites heading west via wagon train were killed by accidents, such as gunshot, sickness, falling beneath wagon wheels, etc. than were killed by attacking Indians.

    Fact: the reason many Indian tribes got along with the French is because the French trappers and traders were not interested in land grabbing.

    Fact: Crazy Horse was such a brilliant military strategist that his strategies are studied at West Point. Some even believed he was too smart to be an Indian and rumors cropped up that he was really a white or mixed blood. He was said to have been lighter in appearance than other Dakota Sioux, but no
    picture of Crazy Horse exists, for he would not allow one to be taken.
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  47. #46
    MoonRabbit Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by tarsier View Post
    This will get me slapped down but my family on Mom's side descended from the Navajo and Conquistadors so that would make me Mexican technically although her ancestors are North of that line as opposed to the Hope.
    Sorry I have a REAL problem with these tribes. They came to his country like 6-10 thousand years ago before the Egyptians rose to their glory rought six-thousand yerars back. Well before the Romans and Western European Civilization, before the Mongols; what the hell were they doing with themselves in all that time?
    Stone weapons, clay pots Natives in Africa had Metal tipped spears before the Whites got there the Chinese had working bombs by 700 A.D. and where were the Native Americans 700 years later when Columbus arrived? They faught constantly among themselves yet no one built a better mousetrap so to speak? We, this country had plenty of natural resources which could have been developed defensively.
    My mother eliminated my Hispanic ancestry from my background. Dad dropped an African American brought home as a wife from the Civil War. When asked I say I descended from the Chinese (they did have bombs) rather than being from around here (this country).
    I have this image of my ancestors; "today class, we will learn metal working by making a bracelet..."
    I'm not saying it was right but it was natural selection at work.
    How would being Navajo and Conquistadors make you a Mexican?
    Neither group is Mexican?

    Navajo is Native American and Conquistador is Spanish.

  48. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonRabbit View Post
    How would being Navajo and Conquistadors make you a Mexican?
    Neither group is Mexican?

    Navajo is Native American and Conquistador is Spanish.
    Mexicans are Spaniards with Indian blood. My husband is Mexican and his ancestors are Aztec and Spaniards, which is the true Mexican, and not Navajo and Conquistadors. (If I'm wrong, someone say so.)
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  49. #48
    MoonRabbit Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post

    Geronimo of the Apache was the last hold out to the West and finally surrendered in 1886.
    My ancestors were Mimbreno Apache.

    To this day Apaches argue over the traitorous Apache scouts
    that lead U.S. generals to locate and fight Geronimo.
    Had it not been for these Apache scouts Geronimo would have
    probably never been caught.
    It took an Apache to locate this great warrior.

    I get a kick out of people that deny Native Americans were not
    slaughtered. The Apache was transported to Florida where
    the climate did not agree with these people.
    Female warrior Lozen died there.
    Geronimo was taken to Oklahoma where he died.
    George Bush's grandfather helped steal his skull for his
    famous secret society (Skull & Bones). Not sure if Geronimo's family got it back?

  50. #49
    MoonRabbit Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    Mexicans are Spaniards with Indian blood. My husband is Mexican and his ancestors are Aztec and Spaniards, which is the true Mexican, and not Navajo and Conquistadors. (If I'm wrong, someone say so.)
    Navajo's are not Mexican.

  51. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonRabbit View Post
    My ancestors were Mimbreno Apache.

    To this day Apaches argue over the traitorous Apache scouts
    that lead U.S. generals to locate and fight Geronimo.
    Had it not been for these Apache scouts Geronimo would have
    probably never been caught.
    It took an Apache to locate this great warrior.

    I get a kick out of people that deny Native Americans were not
    slaughtered. The Apache was transported to Florida where
    the climate did not agree with these people.
    Female warrior Lozen died there.
    Geronimo was taken to Oklahoma where he died.
    George Bush's grandfather helped steal his skull for his
    famous secret society (Skull & Bones). Not sure if Geronimo's family got it back?
    GOD IS NOT DEAD





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