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Thread: December 7th 1941 - Pearl Harbor

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by duster View Post
    I don't whether this is true but...I've heard that the Allies knew exactly when the attack on Pearl Harbour would happen. Winston Churchill, the British Prime Minister, witheld that information from the Americans because he knew that a successful attack against them would compel the US to join the war effort, which they'd been reluctant to do prior to Dec. 7, 1941.
    I believe it's true, Duster. I have also read that Roosevelt also knew and let it happen because America needed to get into the war to aid her allies.

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    This is one time I will have to disagree with my Cindy. I dont believe that Churchill would have allowed the murder of all those men just to have us get into the war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    I believe it's true, Duster. I have also read that Roosevelt also knew and let it happen because America needed to get into the war to aid her allies.
    There is a book out by Robert Stinnett Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor It's hard to believe that President Roosevelt didn't know about the attack ahead of time!

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    It's a little known fact that they did try to recover some of the bodies from the USS Arizona. A diver in full diving gear entered the wreck and found a room full of headless, rotten corpses floating around. When he managed to get one out of the ship, it shot to the surface like a balloon. The army medics waiting in boats on the surface had to wear gas masks, and the whole operation became so horrific that it was called off. The official word went out that "no more bodies could be recovered." In retrospect, it was probably the right decision. It was impossible to identify the bodies that were recovered; most were headless, decomposition had eliminated fingerprints, few were wearing dogtags if they still had necks to hold them, and DNA was 60 years in the future.

    The salvage/recovery operation for the damaged ships was an incredibly complex operation that has largely been ignored by historians. Diving on the damaged ships was very dangerous -- they were full of oil, live ammunition, dead bodies, and rotten food. Frequently, techniques and equipment had to be invented on the spot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    I believe it's true, Duster. I have also read that Roosevelt also knew and let it happen because America needed to get into the war to aid her allies.
    I personally believe George W. Bush knew about 9-11-01 as well!

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by duster View Post
    I don't whether this is true but...I've heard that the Allies knew exactly when the attack on Pearl Harbour would happen. Winston Churchill, the British Prime Minister, witheld that information from the Americans because he knew that a successful attack against them would compel the US to join the war effort, which they'd been reluctant to do prior to Dec. 7, 1941.
    And if I had been Churchill I would have done exactly the same thing.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMysterian View Post
    There is a book out by Robert Stinnett Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor It's hard to believe that President Roosevelt didn't know about the attack ahead of time!
    If the Japanese were going to declare war on the U.S., why would Roosevelt have needed to keep that information from his armed forces?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxster View Post
    If the Japanese were going to declare war on the U.S., why would Roosevelt have needed to keep that information from his armed forces?
    First I must say I don't believe he knew in advance. To answer your specific question though. The US was watching the war proceed in Europe and certainly some wanted to jump into the fight but many people, some say a majority did not want to get involved in a Europena war. They did not want US soldiers, Sailors or Marines ( there was no Air Force yet just Army Air Corp) to fight and spill their blood for other countries. Our shipping was being attacked but Germany steered clear of shelling the US Coast for good reason.
    It is argued that FDR knew that a sucker punch sneak attack would rally and move the US to aggressively support the war action therefore he allowed Pearl Harbor to be attacked.
    I don't buy it for a minute. The main body of our Pacific Fleet was destroyed. Aggressive followup by Japanese forces could have wiped us out worse than what actually happened. I don't think FDR would have risked that and others had to know, military brass , there was no CIA or anything like it at the time. I don't think Navy brass could have been contained from going public or at least spilled the beans after the war.
    Truman could have spilled the beans to take the considerable end of war heat off of himself. Again no way in my opinion.
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    Something just ocurred to me: If Churchill did know in advance that an attack was imminent (and I seriously doubt that he did), there would have been no real reason to withold the information. All he'd need to do would be to inform the US that he had proof an attack was being hatched. Simply knowing that they were being targetted by Japan would have been enough to compel the Americans to declare war.

    It would also have saved thousands of lives at Pearl Harbour, because the "surprise" attack could then have been headed off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by duster View Post
    Something just ocurred to me: If Churchill did know in advance that an attack was imminent (and I seriously doubt that he did), there would have been no real reason to withold the information. All he'd need to do would be to inform the US that he had proof an attack was being hatched. Simply knowing that they were being targetted by Japan would have been enough to compel the Americans to declare war.

    It would also have saved thousands of lives at Pearl Harbour, because the "surprise" attack could then have been headed off.
    Absolutely! I agree, makes no sense.
    regards,
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    Admiral Kimmel and General Short bore the brunt of the blame for Pearl Harbor and to a certain extent, rightfully so. However, there was plenty of blame to go around from the executive branch on down. There were plenty of signs that something was afoot and Kimmel and Short were warned to be prepared, but they failed to effectively communicate with each other and Short was obsessed with defending against sabotage.

    As Mary stated, most of the citizenry supported isolationism, but the US was already tacitly involved in the European theater (shipping supplies, providing protection for convoys). In fact almost two months before Pearl Harbor, eleven sailors aboard the destroyer USS Kearney were killed in a U-boat attack on convoy SC-48.

    Mary has a very good point about the Japanese failure to follow up the initial attack. They could have indeed made things even worse. As it was, they failed to bomb the fuel depots, maintenance facilites, etc.

    So no, I do not believe Roosevelt or Churchill had prior knowledge although they both most certainly knew something was about to happen in the Pacific. The reasons the carriers were not at Pearl is that the USS Enterprise was on its way back to Pearl from delivering aircraft to Midway and the USS Lexington was on its way to Wake Island also delivering planes. USS Saratoga was on its way to the west coast for maintenance.
    Last edited by Ima Sikfuk; 12-09-2009 at 06:32 PM.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by duster View Post
    It would also have saved thousands of lives at Pearl Harbour, because the "surprise" attack could then have been headed off.
    Not necessarily. As Admiral Nimitz said later, if Kimmel had been warned in advance, he might have tried to have intercepted the Japanese fleet, which heavily outgunned his own, and the Pacific Fleet might have been sunk in deep water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxster View Post
    Not necessarily. As Admiral Nimitz said later, if Kimmel had been warned in advance, he might have tried to have intercepted the Japanese fleet, which heavily outgunned his own, and the Pacific Fleet might have been sunk in deep water.
    Exactly, excellent point!

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    Quote Originally Posted by duster View Post
    I don't whether this is true but...I've heard that the Allies knew exactly when the attack on Pearl Harbour would happen. Winston Churchill, the British Prime Minister, witheld that information from the Americans because he knew that a successful attack against them would compel the US to join the war effort, which they'd been reluctant to do prior to Dec. 7, 1941.

    recently read a book on the yom kippur war.

    the author in the introduction compares the situation to pearl harbor,and how all the signals should have told somebody the attacks were imminent.

    started on a stalin book,whose sole subject is how he disregarded all of the massive intelligence of the nazi onslaught about to start.
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    Not only that, war with Japan did not mean war with Germany. The U.S. did enter the war against Germany, but only because Hitler declared war on the U.S. to help his Asian ally.

    The Americans and British knew the war was all but inevitable, but a big problem for both was that they grossly underestimated Japanese capabilities.

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    If you scroll down, you can see a film of the inside of the USS Arizona Memorial: http://armchairhawaii.com/Attraction...ona/index.html
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxster View Post
    Not necessarily. As Admiral Nimitz said later, if Kimmel had been warned in advance, he might have tried to have intercepted the Japanese fleet, which heavily outgunned his own, and the Pacific Fleet might have been sunk in deep water.
    That's a very good point.
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    The mast and bell from the USS West Virginia are installed at West Virginia University. It is traditional for family and friends to hold a gathering at the mast and ring the bell when a student dies. It's very poignant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnitelamp View Post

    started on a stalin book,whose sole subject is how he disregarded all of the massive intelligence of the nazi onslaught about to start.
    Who in a fit of paranoia beheaded his Army by killing a third or so of his senior orificers. There is a great book titled 'The road to Berlin' by John Erickson. Deals with the end of Barbarossa and how the Soviets turned it around. Very anal and very detailed. History in minutae. Extremely hard read.
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  20. #70
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    On this day December 7th, 2010 let us not forget the attack on innocent Americans by the JAPANESE at Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941, and all the lives that were lost.
    May they Rest In Peace.
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    Thanks to everyone who fought in that war and all other wars!

    War disturbs me.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    On this day December 7th, 2010 let us not forget the attack on innocent Americans by the JAPANESE at Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941, and all the lives that were lost.
    May they Rest In Peace.
    Well said. I will also take this opportunity to discuss the event with my kids which has become an annual event since the schools seem to ignore it.

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    To "The Greatest Generation" Thank You for the freedom we all enjoy today.

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    In memory of our brave soldiers who lost thier lives that fateful day. Also to my Uncle Walt who survived the attacks.
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    It's so sad there are so few Pearl Harbor survivors left. I read in the paper this weekend that the national association of survivors is thinking about disbanding leaving just local associations. We must not forget all those who have fought for our country.

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    I watched Tora! Tora! Tora! - supposed to be the most accurate depiction of that day. My heart ached for the lives lost. I was also pissed at all the blunders made that day. I don't even want to know if the "blunderheads" lived or died that day. Whenever I remember Pearl Harbor, I also remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki and I just feel deep sadness. It's what keeps me leaning towards being a pacifist - of course, with all due respect to veterans and those in the armed services. I know it is a necessary evil, but I will never understand why - not deep in my heart, anyway.

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    This is the mast of the USS West Virginia, the first ship hit during the attack on Pearl Harbour. It is located in front of the West Virginia University student union, the Mountain Lair.


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    USS Arizona

    I had the honor of visiting the USS Arizona Memorial in 2007. We were en-route to the Big Island and had a long layover in Honolulu. When we arrived at the ticket office we were told that we were in luck. Tickets were sold out, but someone had just returned theirs because they didn't have time.

    What took me by surprise was the strong smell of oil as we approached the memorial. You can still see it bubbling up from the ship. I watched a documentary once and a survivor said that he believes the day the last survivor dies will be the day the oil stops seeping.

    Not sure if you are aware, but the survivors that were stationed the ship on December 7, 1947, are given the opportunity to have their cremated remains buried in the ship. If you were not on the ship but were stationed at Pearl Harbor can have their ashes scattered over the memorial. One of my friends was in Honolulu recently and was unable to visit the memorial because of a private funeral.

    My husband was in the Air Force and spent two weeks at the naval base. He said it was kind of freaky to walk around and still see all the bullet holes in the buildings.

    And if you are ever in Phoenix, be sure to visit Wesley Bolin Plaza across from the capital - the other USS Arizona anchor is there.

    Here are a few photos that I took during our visit.
    Attached Images Attached Images
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    Thank you for those wonderful photos. I'm so glad they made a memorial of the Arizona.
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    70 years ago today!
    12_7_1941_000.jpgAttachment 0

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    the planes used to attack hawaii were built on Honda chassies. Yes Honda did exist in 41. They has Mitsubishi motors in them.

    Early Popeye the sailor cartoon shorts had popeye eating his spinach then kicking Japanese soldgers asses. They don't show them today so unless you buy popeye on dvd you won't ever see them.

    If you ever watch the old nazi film footage on History channel, you'll see the BMW logo on the wings of german places and on ships flags. Bmw built much of the nazi war equipment, of course using jews as slave labor.

    Just a few reasons why ill never buy a japanese or german car.

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    http://www.ussutah.org/memorial%202000.htm

    Semper Fortis. Never forget. Link is for the lesser known Battleship USS Utah Memorial, also in Pearl Harbor. Her Sailors are memorialized as well.

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    If you ever get to Fredricksburg, Texas, there is the Nimitz Museum, http://www.pacificwarmuseum.org/index.asp, and one of the Japanese submarines that was recovered is on display. Very interesting place to visit.

    "The National Museum of the Pacific War has three main features related to Japan's special (suicide) attacks:
    • midget submarine that tried to make torpedo attack at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, but was captured on following day along with pilot Kazuo Sakamaki
    • short video about 23 kamikaze planes shot down in one hour and 40 minutes by destroyer USS Hugh W. Hadley (DD-774) on May 11, 1945
    • Memorial Courtyard plaques that honor ships sunk or damaged by Japanese kamikaze aircraft
    The museum is located in the historic small town of Fredericksburg, Texas, home of Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, who served as Commander in Chief of the US Pacific Fleet during WWII. His grandfather ran the Nimitz Hotel, which served as the original building for the museum when it opened in 1967. The National Museum of the Pacific War expanded greatly with the re-opening in December 2009 of the George H. W. Bush Gallery, which has 32,000 square feet of exhibition space."
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    my great uncle, Elvin, was in the Navy stationed at Pearl Harbor the day it happened. We have an old newspaper clipping of his account. It's pretty cool. My great uncle, Howard, joined the Navy after Pearl Harbor but he fought in WWII. He used to tell me a bunch of stories.
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    My father casually commented that FDR knew about the attack beforehand while we were watching a war movie.

    He was an Air Force intelligence officer.

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    I have an extremely interesting book about the effort to salvage and repair she ships damaged at Pearl Harbor. There was a hell of a lot more to it than most people would guess, and some divers and salvage experts arrived in Hawaii while the fires were still burning. It was extremely hazardous duty, involving countless dives using the old fashioned diving suits with brass helmets and lead shoes. The ships were full of fuel, rotting food, jagged metal, live ammunition, and dead bodies. I'm not sure even hags would like to hear of the attempt to recover bodies from the USS Arizona, or maybe even the diver who had to burrow under the Arizona in order to ascertain if the ship's "back was broken." It was, and the diver was trapped all night under the ship because of a small "landslide." Luckily, he was in constant telephone communication with the surface, and they got him out the next day. I had also never heard of the "General Electric Express," which was a special train that went from one end of the country to the other picking up electrical engineers and technicians so they could be flown to Hawaii where their skills were needed to help repair or at least make operational the turbo-electric engines of two battleships. Gradually, all but two battleships were raised. Some lightly-damaged ships went immediately back to combat, while others were sent to the Mainland for more extensive repairs and rebuilding. They emerged as better ships than before with the latest radars, communications equipment, fire control systems, anti-aircraft armament, and torpedo protection. These "old" or "slow" battleships were too slow to keep up with the new task forces built around aircraft carriers, but they still put in heroic service all over the world. I feel that the Navy should have issued a service ribbon for the men who worked on this vital but mostly-forgotten episode of the war, hut they never did.
    Last edited by RogerV; 12-08-2011 at 08:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerV View Post
    I have an extremely interesting book about the effort to salvage and repair she ships damaged at Pearl Harbor. There was a hell of a lot more to it than most people would guess. It was extremely hazardous duty involving countless dives using the old fashioned diving suits with brass helmets. The ships were full of fuel, rotting food, jagged metal, live ammunition, and dead bodies. I'm not sure even hags would like to hear of the attempt to recover bodies from the USS Arizona, or maybe even the diver who had to burrow under the Arizona in order to ascertain if the ship's "back was broken." It was, and the diver was trapped all night under the ship because of a small "landslide." Luckily, he was in constant communication with the surface, and they got him out the next day. I had also never heard of the "General Electric Express," which was a special train that went from one end of the country to the other picking up electrical engineers and technicians so they could be flown to Hawaii where their skills were needed to help repair or at least make operational the turbo-electric engines of two battleships. Gradually, all but two battleships were raised. Some went immediately back to combat, while others were sent to the Mainland for more extensive repair and rebuilding. They emerged as better ships than before with the latest radars, communications equipment, fire control systems, and torpedo protection. These "old" or "slow" battleships put in heroic service all over the world. I feel that the Navy should have issued a service ribbon for the men who worked on this vital but mostly-forgotten episode of the war, hut they never did.
    Sounds interesting, what is the name of the book?

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    A Little-Known Aspect of the Attack on Pearl Harbor

    Any history book will tell you that all but two of the battleships at Pearl Harbor were raised, repaired, and lived to fight again. What few people really know is what a gargantuan task that process was. Divers and salvage experts were flown to Hawaii, some of them arriving before the fires were even extinguished. The process was extremely dangerous, with hundredes of dives being made in the old diving suits with metal helmets and lead shoes. The ships were full of oil, rotting food, sharp, jagged metal, live ammunition, and dead bodies. Even for death hags I don't think I'll repeat the story of the attempt to retreive bodies from the USS Arizona.

    One diver had to burrow under the Arizona to discover if the ship's "back was broken." It was, but while he was under the ship, he was trapped by an underwater "landslide," and had to remain there all night. Fortunately, he was at least in constant telephone contact with the "surface."

    On the mainland, a special train rushed across the country picking up electrical engineers and technicians. They were flown to Pearl to help repair or at least make operational the turbo-electric engines aboard several of the ships. A couple of battleships were lightly damaged, and were able to go to sea after relatively simple repairs.

    The rest of the job taxed American engineering and improvisational skills to the maximum, as procedures often had to be invented on the spot. Slowly, the ships emerged from the muck, and most were sent to the mainland once they had been made seaworthy to receive more extensive repairs and modernizations. When they completed this process they were equipped with the latest radars, fire control systems, communications, greatly expanded anti-aircraft armament, and improved torpedo protection. These "old" or "slow" battleships were too slow to keep up with the modern battle fleets formed around aircraft carriers, yet they still served with distinction all over the world.

    My personal opinion is that the US Navy should have issued a service ribbon to the men who worked on this critically important job, but they never did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMysterian View Post
    Sounds interesting, what is the name of the book?
    Hell, I knew someone was going to ask me, and damned if I can find it at the moment. I THINK it may be called simply Resurrection. Another, in some ways, more interesting book is called Descent Into Darkness, which is a firshand account written by one of the divers who was rushed from San Diego to Hawaii.
    Last edited by RogerV; 12-08-2011 at 09:46 PM.
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    Thanks's Roger, i'll see what i can find on the subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by havoc View Post
    If you ever get to Fredricksburg, Texas, there is the Nimitz Museum, http://www.pacificwarmuseum.org/index.asp, and one of the Japanese submarines that was recovered is on display. Very interesting place to visit.
    I was there this past June and it is well worth a visit. The staff there was great and the exhibits take you from the late 30's up to just after the war ended. The exhibit that really got to me was the giant blow up of the letter that Mrs. Sullivan wrote asking about her five sons that were all on the USS Juneau. All five were killed, four went down with the ship and the last died while waiting to be rescued. (I read a story by one of the people who was rescued that he kept calling out for his brothers and hours later said he could see the ship and was going to swim down to it to save his brothers. He dove under and never came back up.) The navy did not want to let the news out but others had told the mother that the ship had been sunk. As a parent it brought tears to my eyes reading a parent begging for news about her children. Several other adults were in the room reading the letter when I was there and all of them, even two tough biker looking guys, were sniffling as they left the room.

    Also, the first time I went to Pearl Harbor I could not go on the Arizona Memorial as I was only 5 and you had to be at least 10 at the time to visit it. (They have since removed the age restriction.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerV View Post
    Hell, I knew someone was going to ask me, and damned if I can find it at the moment. I THINK it may be called simply Resurrection. Another, in some ways, more interesting book is called Descent Into Darkness, which is a firshand account written by one of the divers who was rushed from San Diego to Hawaii.
    I have read Descent Into Darkness and it is a good book. The story about how the divers also "salvaged" the safes on the various ships is pretty funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Ghost View Post
    I was there this past June and it is well worth a visit. The staff there was great and the exhibits take you from the late 30's up to just after the war ended. The exhibit that really got to me was the giant blow up of the letter that Mrs. Sullivan wrote asking about her five sons that were all on the USS Juneau. All five were killed, four went down with the ship and the last died while waiting to be rescued. (I read a story by one of the people who was rescued that he kept calling out for his brothers and hours later said he could see the ship and was going to swim down to it to save his brothers. He dove under and never came back up.) The navy did not want to let the news out but others had told the mother that the ship had been sunk. As a parent it brought tears to my eyes reading a parent begging for news about her children. Several other adults were in the room reading the letter when I was there and all of them, even two tough biker looking guys, were sniffling as they left the room.
    The Navy named a new destroyer "The Sullivans," and their mother christened it. Also, not many people know there was a sixth Sullivan -- their sister who enlisted in the WAVES after her brothers were lost.
    You say you've lost your mind? Well, if you ever find it again, please look and see if mine is there too!

  45. #95
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    30,699
    Quote Originally Posted by havoc View Post
    If you ever get to Fredricksburg, Texas, there is the Nimitz Museum, http://www.pacificwarmuseum.org/index.asp, and one of the Japanese submarines that was recovered is on display. Very interesting place to visit.

    "The National Museum of the Pacific War has three main features related to Japan's special (suicide) attacks:
    • midget submarine that tried to make torpedo attack at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, but was captured on following day along with pilot Kazuo Sakamaki
    • short video about 23 kamikaze planes shot down in one hour and 40 minutes by destroyer USS Hugh W. Hadley (DD-774) on May 11, 1945
    • Memorial Courtyard plaques that honor ships sunk or damaged by Japanese kamikaze aircraft

    The museum is located in the historic small town of Fredericksburg, Texas, home of Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, who served as Commander in Chief of the US Pacific Fleet during WWII. His grandfather ran the Nimitz Hotel, which served as the original building for the museum when it opened in 1967. The National Museum of the Pacific War expanded greatly with the re-opening in December 2009 of the George H. W. Bush Gallery, which has 32,000 square feet of exhibition space."
    I love that museum.
    Heres a working link:
    http://www.pacificwarmuseum.org/
    A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

  46. #96
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    30,699
    Spaghetti-Os remembers Pearl Harbor
    http://boingboing.net/2013/12/07/spa...ml#more-272939
    Too fucking funny:
    Ba3XBjXCEAAAXnU.jpg
    A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

  47. #97
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Middle Earth
    Posts
    13,068
    We have lost another one. RIP Sir. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...000592&ref=yfp
    Some days, you get the Bear, other days the Bear gets you.

  48. #98
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    2,756
    Quote Originally Posted by cleanskull View Post
    Go easy good sir......and Thank you.
    To my Father. Even though you have crossed the plane, you will always be with me.
    You were not just my Father, but my hero. My life has been a poor attempt to be like you
    You taught me music, vocals, and how to fight. I can only hope I am half the man you are
    When I close my eyes I can see you. And finally, Thank you Dad. for everything.
    March 1934-July 2016

  49. #99
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Middle Earth
    Posts
    13,068
    74 years ago today. Never forget.
    Some days, you get the Bear, other days the Bear gets you.

  50. #100
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    2,756
    Rest in peace my brothers. You were the greatest generation
    To my Father. Even though you have crossed the plane, you will always be with me.
    You were not just my Father, but my hero. My life has been a poor attempt to be like you
    You taught me music, vocals, and how to fight. I can only hope I am half the man you are
    When I close my eyes I can see you. And finally, Thank you Dad. for everything.
    March 1934-July 2016

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