8-year-old accused of killing father, another man

[jay]

FLAGSTAFF, Arizona (AP) -- An 8-year-old boy is charged with murder in the shooting of his father and another man in a rural community in eastern Arizona, authorities said Friday.

The boy was charged with two counts of premeditated murder in the death of his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans, St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said.

Police arrived at the home within minutes of the shooting Wednesday, Melnick said. They found one victim just outside the front door and the other dead in an upstairs room.

The boy, who prosecutors say had never been in trouble before, initially denied involvement in the shooting but later confessed, Melnick said.
Police have not said what they think the boy's motive was.

Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer argued Friday that police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights.

"They became very accusing early on in the interview," Brewer said. "Two officers with guns at their side, it's very scary for anybody, for sure an 8-year-old kid."

A judge determined at a hearing Friday that there was probable cause to believe the boy committed the killings. He is being held at the Apache County juvenile detention center.

St. Johns is a community of about 4,000 people about 170 miles northeast of Phoenix.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/07/....ap/index.html

[Jazbabee]

Premeditated ?? Good grief !!

[MandyLynn]

holy crap...

[hell0kitty]

i wonder if there will be a little blue noose for his sweet little neck?

[djdeath-hag]

I'm hoping he will be exonorated....sounds to me like a coerced confession.

[Gorey]

I'm wondering what the father and the man did to him to cause him to want to shoot them. I can't imagine an 8 yo premeditating a murder without some idea that he had too. It could be his perception of what the guys were doing that triggered him. I don't know It's all very scary.

[Ivy]

Very sad.

[darlingdawn]

I wonder if the child was being sexually abused....And, correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't a rifle be hard for an 8 year old to shoot?

[Ghoulie Girl]

I am very interested in the details of this.
Regardless, very sad situation.

[GAdeathhag]

thats terrible---- btw isnt that where Aunt Edna died----

[Cettie]

Oh damn, this kid could have been my nephew. Deja vu all over again.

[unihikid]

wow my friend lives in st johns(its a depressing place and i never plan on going again)that sucks though..8 years old i wonder what happened.

[deathbunny]

as others have said they must have done something to that kid . my daughters 8 cant imagine anyone at that age doing something like this

[Lita]

When I first read the title I thought a little girl did it for some reason. This is a very sad case. I'm surprised that they even charged him. A lot of places wouldn't charge somebody so young. And premeditated? I guess if the kid was raised by Chucky (from Child's Play) it could be. I bet a component of their defense will be violence on TV. A lot of people are quick to blame TV for children's violence instead of looking at why a parent allowed the child to watch such violent tv shows.

[Roaming Tigress]

Wow . . . At first I thought his age on the subject title was a typo

[eca1094]

I wonder if the child was being sexually abused....And, correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't a rifle be hard for an 8 year old to shoot?

I think that is what happened.

[silverwaif77]

Where is this kid's Mom?
How can they try an 8 year old as an adult? A 16 year old as an adult I can see, but an 8 year old? No freakin way.
It sounds like CPS has once again dropped the ball and allowed another child to stay in a dangerous situation.
I have heard that a child of 6 months old has enough hand strength to fire a gun, aim comes when you get older.

[Lita]

Police are looking into whether the boy had been abused. He faces two counts of premeditated murder.

Police Chief Roy Melnick said the boy did not act on the spur of the moment, and that he planned and "methodically carried out the acts."

"I'm not accusing anybody of anything at this point," he said. "But we're certainly going to look at the abuse part of this. He's 8 years old. He just doesn't decide one day that he's going to shoot his father and shoot his father's friend for no reason. Something led up to this."

A family member who did not want to be identified because of the nature of the allegations said the boy wasn't abused.

That's from an Arizona news site. You can find the news video and slide show of the crime scene here. The family cannot seriously think that this CHILD killed his father and another person for no reason! The news story also mentions that the father was a newly-wed who consulted a priest with his new bride about giving the child a gun. The father was an avid hunter. There's no mention of her.

OMFG!!!! They're talking about charging this boy as an adult!!! WTF are they thinking???? HE'S 8 NOT 18! I can't believe this! I hope the judge charges him as a juvenile which is what he is. I want to know why they think this is a premeditated act carried out by an 8 year old boy that warrants him being charged as an adult. Whether there was abuse or not, an 8 year old boy does not know the impact of his actions like a 15 or 16 year old kid that might be tried as an adult. He will probably need extensive psychological counseling after he realizes what he's done. Besides, if they charge him as a juvenile, he'll be in a juvenile "detention" (they say "detention in the article but I'm thinking he'd be in a juvenile corrections center) center until he's 18. Juvenile corrections is nothing like adult corrections. That kid wouldn't last in prison for his WHOLE LIFE. In the juvenile system he'll at least be mandated to get an education, have healthy food, and have to do Large Muscle Activity. There will be no TV unless it's an educational video, no radios. There is no commesary like in adult prison. He'll be in the juvenile system for 10 years without the possibility of parole. There is no parole in the juvenile system. That's more than most murderers have to serve when they're charged as an adult!


ETA:

Where is this kid's Mom?
How can they try an 8 year old as an adult? A 16 year old as an adult I can see, but an 8 year old? No freakin way.
It sounds like CPS has once again dropped the ball and allowed another child to stay in a dangerous situation.
I have heard that a child of 6 months old has enough hand strength to fire a gun, aim comes when you get older.

The mom apparently lives in Mississippi, visited over the weekend, and then went home. She returned to Arizona after the shootings. There isn't any history of calls involving this child reported to CPS at this time. I guess I should have read your post before I posted because I would have known that they were planning on charging him as an adult and I may not have freaked out so bad.

[tommyjox]

They can charge him as an adult, but actual prosecution is another ball game.

Find a district court judge that wants to sit for this case!

Remanded to juvenile.....

[michihunt]

I wonder if the child was being sexually abused....And, correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't a rifle be hard for an 8 year old to shoot?

I thought the exact same thing.

[Jazbabee]

I just read an update where the authorities have said that they are investigating suspicions of some sort of abuse, although they won't diculge at this time what sort of abuse they believe may have been going on.

[xenaswolf]

You can almost bet this kid was abused or his mom and him were or something. Not many 8 year olds are smart enough to plan something like this very well.

[Roaming Tigress]

You can almost bet this kid was abused or his mom and him were or something. Not many 8 year olds are smart enough to plan something like this very well.

Now that I re-read it . . . That does make sense.

[guardmom2008]

I wonder what his motive was.

[Lita]

I'm thinking that the dad and other occupant of the house that was killed were abusing this poor boy. If it is premeditated, the boy would have known that both men would be home and his step-mom would be out. I hope they come out with more details soon.

[STRAIGHT]

I smell child abuse here. No child especially an 8 year old would do something like that unless he were being severly abused in one form or another.

[Miho]

They say they found evidence that he premeditated if for a while. I wonder what kind of evidence they are talking about?

If he was abused than the kid needs help. If they find out there was nothing going on then 8 years old or not the kid needs to be locked away for a long time. Tell the family of the next person he murders at 16 that he got a slap on the wrist for killing two people in cold blood at 8.

[Lita]

He wouldn't be out of the system at 16 if he gets charged as a juvenile. He'll be in the juvenile system until he's 18 and sometimes juvenile systems hold people until they're 21. He goes to court today so we should hear later if they remand him to juvenile or adult court. I agree if this was a premeditated act with no abuse present, this boy should go away. However, it sounds like the police screwed up by not having an attorney or parent/guardian present at the time they questioned the boy. Yeah mom was in Mississippi but couldn't the step-mom have been present for questioning or somebody that knows about juvenile questioning? In my mind it's hard to reconcile an 8 year old boy planning a double-murder without some provocation...but then there was that 10 year old who stole his grandma's car and went joyriding with his friend "because it's fun to do bad things." I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens at court.

[Pammijo]

I've been following this story in the news. It's a sign of the times. How horrible.

[TheNotherOne]

You can almost bet this kid was abused or his mom and him were or something. Not many 8 year olds are smart enough to plan something like this very well.

If that were the case, it begs the question of why the mom left him in the care of his father...in another state. Did they have joint custody or did she just have visitation? Something sure ain't right here....

[ichabodius]

Just kill the kid and be done with it. Do you want the little monster to be a free adult in 10 years?

[Lita]

Ichles! You can't just kill the boy. What if he was abused? The doesn't mean in ten years he'll kill again...of course it doesn't mean that he won't either. The judge issued a gag order in the case so we won't be finding out much for awhile.

[mysterygoddess1978]

I think an 8 yr old that has been abused in any way is capiable of premeditated murder. Depending on the severity of the abuse. I have a 7 yr old step son that was severly abused by his real mother and her boyfriend at the time. My step son was 1 1/2 old. He is still suffering the aftermath of what happened to him, he is on 4 different medications and has a severe anger problem.

I think the child should be punished for what he did, but now he is going to go through the most gruling(or however it's spelled) phyco tests that he will ever have to go through.

But for a child that young to do something like that he more than a cry for attention, he has some type of a mental problem.

It angers me that the child services did not see any problem with a child like that before this happened. Lord knows that DCFS in my town didn't do crap for the abuse that my step son went though. She never even spent one night in jail for what she did to him.

[Jaxxx]

totally amazing, to think that some 8 yr old would kill two people, a father no less, something is terribly wrong, I'm not so far away from Ich post, maybe he's just not a good kid

[Miho]

It's sad, but maybe some people are just evil. People don't know how others become sociopaths, but they have no concience and can't understand how their actions effect others. Plus, there is no treatment. Very sad...

[Mrs Tingles]

There must be a reason to why this kid did this. Maybe his father abused him or something. So sad

[cindyt]

I'm with Dennis, I hope he was set up. It doesn't look like it now, but you never know.

Who would set up an 8 year old? A few years ago a woman's apartment caught on fire and a bunch of her kids died. She blammed it on her 2 y/o. Turned out she set the blaze herself.

My daddy took me squirrel hunting when I was 8 y/o and I didn't have any trouble handling a .22 rifle.

If he did it, it is highly likely he was abused.

I also believe that some people are born evil. I do. Take Ted Bundy. His sister (really his mother) woke up early one morning and saw him standing at the foot of her bed with a butcher knife in his hand. He was 3 y/o. It is believed that he kidnapped and murdered his first victim at age 14.

[Harrietd]

I'm with Dennis, I hope he was set up. It doesn't look like it now, but you never know.

Who would set up an 8 year old? A few years ago a woman's apartment caught on fire and a bunch of her kids died. She blammed it on her 2 y/o. Turned out she set the blaze herself.

My daddy took me squirrel hunting when I was 8 y/o and I didn't have any trouble handling a .22 rifle.

If he did it, it is highly likely he was abused.

I also believe that some people are born evil. I do. Take Ted Bundy. His sister (really his mother) woke up early one morning and saw him standing at the foot of her bed with a butcher knife in his hand. He was 3 y/o. It is believed that he kidnapped and murdered his first victim at age 14.

Let's not forget those two little monsters (weren't they like, 8 or 9) who kidnapped that little boy from a mall in the UK and basically tortured him to death.

[TheNotherOne]

Here's a video of the beginning of the police interview. This kid is very, very cool. Creepy.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepag...18c702709.html

The reporter says at the end that according to police, the boy eventually confessed. Who knows, there just may be something to the "bad seed" theory.

[Miho]

Wow... something just wasn't right in his tone of voice. Seems very matter of fact about things....

[NOVSTORM]

Kids can be very matter of fact because they are blocking something. He sounds just like my youngest gdaughter who is 7..and I think this kid has been made to think that he did this . I have seen the olderst gdaughter convince the 7 yr old she did somethin g when in fact it was the oldest one. Kids are very vunerable at that age and I have my doubts about him doing this double murder.

[Shamrocker99]

Very strange story. From listening to the interview, it sounds as if the kid is innocent, but that could just be the mom in me! I know there are lots of little bastards out there, but I just can't imagine the premeditation from an 8 year old. I could see him doing something rashly on the spur of the moment, but planning it? I don't know. And no one else heard the shots from the rifle? It sounded like a fairly residential neighborhood from the kids description.

[TheNotherOne]

This from the CNN website:

A man who police believe was shot and killed by his 8-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should have a gun and had taught him how to use firearms, the clergyman said. The Very Rev. John Paul Sauter said the man, Vincent Romero, 29, wanted his son to learn how to hunt, but the boy's stepmother, Tiffany, suggested that he have a BB gun.

Police say the boy used a 22.-caliber rifle Wednesday to kill his father and another man, Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos.
Romero was an avid hunter who taught his son how to use a rifle to kill prairie dogs, said Sauter, of St. Johns Catholic Church.
"He wanted to make sure the kid wasn't afraid of guns, knew how to handle it," the priest said. "He was just too young. ... That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal."

The boy, who faces two counts of premeditated murder, did not act on the spur of the moment, St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said.
"I'm not accusing anybody of anything at this point," he said Saturday. "But we're certainly going to look at the abuse part of this. He's 8 years old. He just doesn't decide one day that he's going to shoot his father and shoot his father's friend for no reason. Something led up to this."
"He had no record of any kind, not even a disciplinary record at school," he said. "He has never been in trouble before."

(BTW: I was brought up Catholic and I've never heard of a "Very Rev." Is that higher or lower than Monseigneur?)

[Lita]

Maybe this kid is just evil. I'm leaning towards he was abused until I hear a jury verdict. Call me an optimist but I just can't---or maybe don't want--to see an 8 year old murdering his father and another man for no reason. But then again, like Harrietd said, those two kids in the UK were young when they murdered a toddler. They were ten years old and the toddler was two. Maybe the 8 year old will be a sociopath. Juveniles cannot be sociopaths, only adults age 18 and older can be diagnosed. The pattern develops in adolescence though.

[Nessa]

How much malice aforethought can an 8 year old really have? A kid that young has no concept of the permanency of death, or a grasp on the concept of murder. Whatever happens, that kid needs SERIOUS help.

[BooMom]

and I bet that video of his questioning gets thrown out.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/19/...ics/index.html

[Lita]

The tape will be thrown out because the boy wasn't read his legal rights and he didn't have anybody present during questioning. If this child really did premeditate the murder of his father and the roommate he'll probably go free because the police bungled the case. Without that tape, I wonder what kind of case they'll actually have. The prosecutors better have a shit ton of forensic evidence against this kid if they want a jury to believe he's some kind of cold-blooded killer.

[TheNotherOne]

How much malice aforethought can an 8 year old really have? A kid that young has no concept of the permanency of death, or a grasp on the concept of murder. Whatever happens, that kid needs SERIOUS help.

I had the same thought when I watched the tape...that the kid (if he actually did it) has no concept of the permanency of death. "Oh look, I can shoot a gun!"

The tape will be thrown out because the boy wasn't read his legal rights and he didn't have anybody present during questioning. If this child really did premeditate the murder of his father and the roommate he'll probably go free because the police bungled the case. Without that tape, I wonder what kind of case they'll actually have. The prosecutors better have a shit ton of forensic evidence against this kid if they want a jury to believe he's some kind of cold-blooded killer.

What WERE The cops thinking? Making the tape public wasn't the smartest decision, either.

[NOVSTORM]

I have some real doubts about this kid beingf the killer. 8 is too young for him to plot something like this out and he also said another man was there and did the shooting and people saw the car speed away. It is so easy to make a kid believe they did something they didn't at that age..

[TheNotherOne]

I have some real doubts about this kid beingf the killer. 8 is too young for him to plot something like this out and he also said another man was there and did the shooting and people saw the car speed away. It is so easy to make a kid believe they did something they didn't at that age..

That's quite possible...but IMO there's still something not quite right about that boy. I was 8 when my grandfather died (my first real experience with the death of someone close), and I remember being sad, scared, and bewildered...just from seeing him laid out in the casket! They say when this kid was sitting in court he was fidgeting, tapping his fingers on the table, and spinning around in his chair. This is a kid who, worst case scenario murdered his father and roommate; best-case scenario, found his father and roommate's bodies. Sure, everybody reacts differently to tragedy, but .