Leni Riefenstahl

[John Connor]

Evil bitch or scapegoat artist? What do you think? I think a bit of both although her conscience was heavy. Her filming of the '36 Olympics in Berlin is nothing short of astounding.

Helene Bertha Amalie "Leni" Riefenstahl (August 22, 1902 – September 8, 2003) was a German film director, dancer and actress widely noted for her aesthetics and innovations as a filmmaker. Her most famous film was Triumph des Willens (Triumph of the Will), a propaganda film made at the 1934 Nuremberg congress of the Nazi Party. Riefenstahl's prominence in the Third Reich along with her personal friendships with Adolf Hitler and Joseph Goebbels thwarted her film career following Germany's defeat in World War II, after which she was arrested but never convicted of war crimes.[1]
The propaganda value of her films made during the 1930s repels most commentators but many film histories cite the aesthetics as outstanding.[2][3][4] After her death the Associated Press described Riefenstahl as an "acclaimed pioneer of film and photographic techniques."[5] Der Tagesspiegel newspaper in Berlin noted, "Leni Riefenstahl conquered new ground in the cinema."[6] The BBC said her documentaries "were hailed as groundbreaking film-making, pioneering techniques involving cranes, tracking rails, and many cameras working at the same time."[7] Reviewer Gary Morris called Riefenstahl "an artist of unparalleled gifts, a woman in an industry dominated by men, one of the great formalists of the cinema on a par with Eisenstein or Welles."[8] Riefenstahl later published her still photography of the Nuba tribes in Africa and made films of marine life.


Death
Leni Riefenstahl died in her sleep on the late evening of September 8, 2003 at her home in Pöcking, Germany a few weeks after her 101st birthday. She had been suffering from cancer. She was buried in the Waldfriedhof in Munich.
In his book The Story of Film film scholar Mark Cousins claims, "Next to Orson Welles and Alfred Hitchcock, Leni Riefenstahl was the most technically talented Western film maker of her era."

[Mach2]

I met an author last week who knew her. David Irving said she had a BF 60 years younger than her.

[John Connor]

I met an author last week who knew her. David Irving said she had a BF 60 years younger than her.

Wiki says 40 but maybe. She also chopped 20 years off her age to get her SCUBA license at 72. I took German Cinema in school and we watched some of her old films as an actress. The woman was an incredible athlete. She climbs this cliff in bare feet! Like a goat she was. Scapegoat I don't know.

[neilmpenny]

Brilliant director, just that she was batting for the other team unfortunately. A lot of her films were never shown after the war as they were considered propaganda 101. Some of the the techniques she developed were new and breathtaking and personally I think she rocked. After the war I think she barely eaked out a living.

[bloodrocuted]

Triumph of the Will was pretty awesome, I must admit. I watched it as part of my film studies back in college, so even academic institutions consider it aesthetically significant.

[Mach2]

Wiki says 40 but maybe. She also chopped 20 years off her age to get her SCUBA license at 72. I took German Cinema in school and we watched some of her old films as an actress. The woman was an incredible athlete. She climbs this cliff in bare feet! Like a goat she was. Scapegoat I don't know.

There was an article recently about HS students getting Fs for using Wiki for research in their homework. Wiki is notoriously inaccurate. It's better than nothing but Columbus did not discover America in 1491 for example.

Leni was in a helicopter crash in africa in her late 90s and survived.

[Mach2]

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/index.html

This sight has a lot on Leni if you search it. This is a HUGE site on WW2. It is not PC but much of the info exists nowhere else and it will soon disappear from here and be gone forever. If you prefer PC to un PC don't go to this site.

[neilmpenny]

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/index.html

This sight has a lot on Leni if you search it. This is a HUGE site on WW2. It is not PC but much of the info exists nowhere else and it will soon disappear from here and be gone forever. If you prefer PC to un PC don't go to this site.

Err un PC indeed. As soon as I saw David Irvine's name I baulked. This is the fellow that insists the holocaust did not happen right?

[John Connor]

There was an article recently about HS students getting Fs for using Wiki for research in their homework. Wiki is notoriously inaccurate. It's better than nothing but Columbus did not discover America in 1491 for example.

Leni was in a helicopter crash in africa in her late 90s and survived.

His name is Horst Kettner. From Time:
http://www.time.com/time/columnist/c...340279,00.html

[midnitelamp]

i "heard" Al Speer was tapping that.

[neilmpenny]

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/index.html

This sight has a lot on Leni if you search it. This is a HUGE site on WW2. It is not PC but much of the info exists nowhere else and it will soon disappear from here and be gone forever. If you prefer PC to un PC don't go to this site.

This is the second time you have linked to this site that I can remember. Are you an anti-semite?

[rickenbacker]

David Irving is no historian. He is a total nutcase. Holocaust deniers amaze me. WWII may be the most documented war in history. We've all seen the photos and film footage. We've heard and read the survivors' stories, the eyewitness accounts from soldiers who liberated the camps. It didn't happen? Sure.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for Leni. She may have been an outstanding filmmaker, but she was not a scapegoat. She played an active part.

[neilmpenny]

And for the record I am not a Jew. My boss is and in 32 years of being at work I have not been treated or paid better. Respect.

[ShatteredMirror]

Whatever you think of her, she had a pretty remarkable life and is one of the most controversial figures in 20th Century film - certainly the most controversial women. It's a pity that much mooted biopic with Jodie Foster never came to light.

[John Connor]

Whatever you think of her, she had a pretty remarkable life and is one of the most controversial figures in 20th Century film - certainly the most controversial women. It's a pity that much mooted biopic with Jodie Foster never came to light.

The Wonderful, Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl is excellent


http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/26/riefenstahl.html

[cachluv]

[ShatteredMirror]

The Wonderful, Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl is excellent


http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/26/riefenstahl.html

Thanks for that keeunjames. I'll certainly try and give that a watch. I've recently read a very good biography of her by Steven Bach called Leni - The Life and Work of Leni Riefenstahl.

[Jack-O-Lantern]

I recently thought I'd give the woman the benefit of the doubt and watched "Triumph of the Will" beginning to end. I agree that her techniques were groundbreaking for the time, but I still found the film itself hard to take.

There's only so much dewy-eyed adoration for Hitler I can take in a single sitting...

[cindyt]

I recently thought I'd give the woman the benefit of the doubt and watched "Triumph of the Will" beginning to end. I agree that her techniques were groundbreaking for the time, but I still found the film itself hard to take.

There's only so much dewy-eyed adoration for Hitler I can take in a single sitting...

Well, I can't take an iota of dewy-eyed adoration for Hitler in a lifetime. I had no idea...

[Mach2]

This is the second time you have linked to this site that I can remember. Are you an anti-semite?

I very clearly stated do not go to this site if you practice Political Correctness. Now you are attacking me and trying to censor the internet. Why don't you just come arrest me and send me and my family to a gulag?

[Mach2]

Whatever you think of her, she had a pretty remarkable life and is one of the most controversial figures in 20th Century film - certainly the most controversial women. It's a pity that much mooted biopic with Jodie Foster never came to light.

Because of Political Correctness Jodie Foster could not make that film. Political Correctness is also why you dont see on tv anymore old favorites like: The Three Stooges(too violent), The Little Rascals and Speedy Gonzalez(too racist). Just last week Breakfast at Tiffany's was deemed Politically Incorrect because Leftist Asians in San Fransisco claimed Mickey Rooney's portrayal of an oriental in BAT was racist. (a claim Mickey Rooney vehemently denies).

[cachluv]

I very clearly stated do not go to this site if you practice Political Correctness. Now you are attacking me and trying to censor the internet. Why don't you just come arrest me and send me and my family to a gulag?

---Mach2, please take a deep breath. Neil just asked a question. I'm truly sorry it hurt your feelings but it was just a question, not an actual attack. Nor do I think he is trying to censor the Internet. No one is going to arrest anyone, no one's family is going to be imprisoned. Please don't take it so hard. Neil is a very benign presence here.

[Mach2]

Sorry Cach if I overreacted but Leni Reifenstahl is dead and I think it should be ok now to research and read about her. Naturally, much of the information available on her is contained on controversial sites just like this one. Go tell your friends at work that you enjoy reading Findadeath.com and see if they don't call you a weirdo or something. You'll see why I get a bit preturbed at being attacked and called names about some of the websites I enjoy reading.

[JimC]

I very clearly stated do not go to this site if you practice Political Correctness. Now you are attacking me and trying to censor the internet. Why don't you just come arrest me and send me and my family to a gulag?

I am about as politically incorrect as you can get. Neil just asked a straight up question. Arrest or imprision you...that would be VERY Un-PC; can't have that here!

And for the record I am not a Jew. My boss is and in 32 years of being at work I have not been treated or paid better. Respect.

I work for a company owned by Native Americans; Choctaw Indians. You will not find better benefits or working conditions anywhere in this industry.

UHMMM...German women rule (the Northern Hemisphere)!

Aussies in the South.

Great thread; and I think that Albert Speer deserves one of his own as well. "Spandau" was a decent read.

[cachluv]

Go tell your friends at work that you enjoy reading Findadeath.com and see if they don't call you a weirdo or something. You'll see why I get a bit preturbed at being attacked and called names about some of the websites I enjoy reading.

---You got that one right buddy "Don't ask, don't tell". My husband respects the interest but it is NOT his cup o tea for sure

I've also felt attacked here sometimes, but upon looking back some of those times weren't meant as attacks. Some. But some were. Aaahhh, screw 'em.

I can't speak for Neil, but I think his question was for clarification. I don't think he meant to call names. Again, not to speak for him. Or for you. This topic is interesting and it's fair game to post. It's hard to 'get' people sometimes by a few words on the Net but look at the person's overall disposition. Neil is a loveable goof who's a good guy and he actually stays away from the skirmishes. I say this, with all respect for you and your feelings, they matter every bit as much as mine or Neil's and everyone else's

[Mach2]

By the way, I met David Irving in Charleston SC in Aug and asked him about Leni. He had interviewed her years ago and asked her about a scene in Triumph of the Will. He said she made him watch the whole movie with her. She would not just play that one scene. Artists are finicky you know. I could tell you more about what Mr Irving said about Leni R but I'd probably be attacked again. All I can say is I have met someone who met and knew Leni personally and Neilmpenny hasnt. BTW I also met the man who led the B25 raid on Tokyo(Lt Col Davey Jones)(all 6ft 6 of him-how he fit ina B25 I'll never know-you won't read his height in any book)

My interests run the entire gambit of human experience. From Left wing to Right wing. I can read and talk about any topic I want to because this is America. The one book I bought when I met Mr Irving washis book about being imprisoned in Austria for a speech he made 19 years ago. I had him autograpgh the book. I told him I admired his courage to speak out. When Mr Irving was in prison in Austria in 2006 I wrote the Austrian embassy in Wash DC protesting his imprisonment. The embassy wrote me back telling me that freespeech in Europe is different than what Americans are used to.

I got news for everyone: there isn't free speech in America anymore and the internet is being censored and shut down as we speak.

[Mach2]

I feel the need to apologize to the forum. I've never had this happen before and it bespeaks well of our group here but I feel like you guys actually listened to me and cut me some slack in my reading eccenticities.

I underestimated who I was talking to. I still feel like I can discuss anyones life in here. We deal with some nefarious characters don't we?


I give the David Irving website out 2 or 3 times a year but I only gave out this sites address once and I was called names so I keep it to myself now. I never felt this site was about dead people. To me Hoss Cartright still lives.

Apologies from Mach2

[Mach2]

I feel the need to apologize to the forum. I've never had this happen before and it bespeaks well of our group here but I feel like you guys actually listened to me and cut me some slack in my reading eccenticities.

I underestimated who I was talking to. I still feel like I can discuss anyones life in here. We deal with some nefarious characters don't we?


I give the David Irving website out 2 or 3 times a year but I only gave out this sites address once and I was called names so I keep it to myself now. I never felt this site was about dead people. To me Hoss Cartright still lives.

Apologies from Mach2

I posted this Fri after work and I have checked on the responses since because I was worried FAD had gone PC. So far no one has called me a NeoCartright. I guess I was worried about nothing.

[cachluv]

Mach, we love you. That's all.

[neilmpenny]

I very clearly stated do not go to this site if you practice Political Correctness. Now you are attacking me and trying to censor the internet. Why don't you just come arrest me and send me and my family to a gulag?

You post hate sites and the run away and cry that you are being victimized because you post them. You are a hypocrite. Do us a favour and fuck off.

[Ima Sikfuk]

There was an article recently about HS students getting Fs for using Wiki for research in their homework. Wiki is notoriously inaccurate. It's better than nothing but Columbus did not discover America in 1491 for example.

Leni was in a helicopter crash in africa in her late 90s and survived.

I'll be the first to admit that Wikipedia can and does get a few facts wrong, but it is a great place to start research. Perhaps the Wiki article on you Mr. Irving has something to do with your feelings towards Wiki? Just asking...

Oh and could you point me to the Wiki article that shows that Columbus discovered America in 1491? I looked under the Wiki article for ol' Chris and it indeed stated in several places 1492. I would also like a link, if you have it handy, to the article on the high school kids getting F's for using Wiki as a research tool. Thanks.

[djdeath-hag]

*****Friendly reminder, PLEASE be respectful towards other members, we don't have to all agree on anything while staying within the rules of conduct here.*****

[deathaddict]

I would like to see a movie about Leni Riefenstahl. It would be interesting to learn more about her life. I read a biography of her years ago and it was loong.

[AnneBoleyn]

I know that she was an accomplished filmmaker, who was before her time and invented alot...and I have always admired strong women. That being said, it´s difficult for me to say anything positive about someone, who supported Hitler and his regime.... Some say that she was naief, but I doubt that very much. She was beyond intelligent, and knew exactly who she was supporting. That´s also how she managed to survive the ordeal....

[deathaddict]

Yeah she was ahead of her time and if she were doing it today she would have got more recognition. But as you say the Hitler thing kind of stuck in peoples minds. She was very intelligent and knew when she was making the film about hitler what type of side of him she wanted people to see.

[midnitelamp]

i was listening to sports talk in the company car,don't know what station,but,some guy was going on about the success of the NFL,and went on about the originator of NFL films as being like Reni to the National Socialists,and mentioned Triumph of the Will. Surely he meant Olympia,but Hitler and his henchmen were nothing more than gangsters,and for that matter so are the owners of the NFL,so i guess he knew of what he spoke.

[neilmpenny]

i was listening to sports talk in the company car,don't know what station,but,some guy was going on about the success of the NFL,and went on about the originator of NFL films as being like Reni to the National Socialists,and mentioned Triumph of the Will. Surely he meant Olympia,but Hitler and his henchmen were nothing more than gangsters,and for that matter so are the owners of the NFL,so i guess he knew of what he spoke.

I think equating the owners of the NFL with Hitler may be painting a picture with a pretty broad bush.

[midnitelamp]

I think equating the owners of the NFL with Hitler may be painting a picture with a pretty broad bush.

did'nt compare them to hitler,compared them both to gangsters.

although in the book Loser Tales All,which is a chronicle of the Oilers move to Nashville,the author says that evidently Nashville would have bought a franchise from Goebbels.

[JimC]

Leni was obviously very intelligent (and beautiful; outwardly) and engineered ground breaking techniques. Albert Speer was also highly intelligent, first as Hitlers' favorite architect; later as his Minister of Armaments.

Both were smart enough to know that they were supporting a maniacal, murdering despot who had proclaimed that Germans were the "master race"; and that entire races of other people; were not worthy of life because they were less than human, and just taking up space that rightfully belonged to the Germans.

Leni and Albert; might have found this idea somewhat tolerable; being German and all (Hitler was not; Austrian was he; and possibly some Jewish blood in his lineage); they might have not found it palatable; but accepted the situation; as that was the only way that they could practice their professions at that time when Hitler ruled.

Obviously; neither found the situation unacceptable.

As for Hitlers' henchmen; who after the war proclaimed their opposition to Hitler; I am reminded of a short story by Woody Allen, wherein he was the favorite barber of Hitler, and he "did his part" for the resistance by letting a few of the clipped hairs fall down Hitlers' neck, while cutting his hair, causing some discomfort.

I greatly admire the German people (especially the women; so beautiful...language like poetry!); the Nazis, not, and you will find Nazis the world over even today; they just call themselves something different; but the ideal and the purpose is the same.

In my neck of the woods, they are called the KKK.

Same thing; it is.

[Mach2]

The Jodie Foster movie about Riefenstahl will never be made because Steven Spielberg blocked it. He pretty much runs Hollywood now.

[JimC]

The Jodie Foster movie about Riefenstahl will never be made because Steven Spielberg blocked it. He pretty much runs Hollywood now.

Any word on why he blocked it; Mach2?

Maybe he thought it would showcase a more innovative artist than himself?

I personnaly would love to see it. I am fascinated by that time and those events.

Kurt Vonnegut (I think), once said that WWII films would always be popular; because the German soldiers had such cool uniforms.

[Mach2]

Any word on why he blocked it; Mach2?

Maybe he thought it would showcase a more innovative artist than himself?

I personnaly would love to see it. I am fascinated by that time and those events.

Kurt Vonnegut (I think), once said that WWII films would always be popular; because the German soldiers had such cool uniforms.

Because PC is such a stifling form or censorship and control. I think Spielberg tried to stop Tom Cruses film on Von Stauffenberg(the German officer whose briefcase nearly blew hitler to bits in 44). This may be why Tom Cruise's carreer is on hold.

[AaronVail]

I met an author last week who knew her. David Irving said she had a BF 60 years younger than her.

Wow. Anything else you can tell us about Irving?

[John Connor]

Because PC is such a stifling form or censorship and control. I think Spielberg tried to stop Tom Cruses film on Von Stauffenberg(the German officer whose briefcase nearly blew hitler to bits in 44). This may be why Tom Cruise's carreer is on hold.

Why would Speilberg want to stop a film based on an enemy of Hitler?

He already worked with Tom Cruise in War of the Worlds and claimed it was such a bad experience what with all the Scientology recruiting tents and what not. Yet WOTW is rife with Scientology ideology. I think it's all crap.

[neilmpenny]

I say go ahead and make the movie. To me it would be fascinating to see how they discovered the conspirators and how far the web spread.

[amaranthaseven]

I love the term "technically brilliant" to describe her. She really did have a great eye, although as a lot of us can agree, the subject matter and the way she treated it was unsettling at best. In hindsight, it's just a ghastly glorification of a very evil man and a frightening era in our history. Maybe she was swept up in Hitler's vision and chose to ignore what it would mean for people who didn't comply with his narrow view of the world, or maybe by the time she realized what it would entail past the shiny veneer it was too late. I don't know.

Jodi Foster has enough money that she could basically tell Steven Spielberg to mind his own effing business and make his own effing films. The more interesting ones aren't getting made by the Hollywood establishment, anyway. Doesn't she have her own production company? I'm sure she could get backing elsewhere. I can't see her doing a glorified version of Riefenstahl; it's just not in her political makeup. if anything, we'd get to see the less flattering side of the whole propaganda machine, which would be fascinating. Horrifying, but fascinating.

Wikipedia seems to run the gamut for quality. Some of the better entries are very well done, but most of the pages are open to anyone to edit, and they don't generally check credentials of the editors. Some of the more controversial pages are locked and moderated, with only a set number of people able to edit. I'd certainly double- and triple-check whatever information I got there, if I were going to use it for research, but it's a great place to start, as others have said.

Frankly, I think Tom Cruise's career is faltering because his publicist wasn't running interference for him for a while there (he had fired his long-time publicist and hired his sister in her place), and he let his mouth run away from him, and we got to see just what a nut he really is. He seems less talkative now- and he has a new publicist- but I think the damage is done. Everything he does now seems to have some pro-Scientology propaganda slant to it, whether he means to do it or not. Maybe that's unfair (or not), but his image is still needing quite a bit of shoring up, in my opinion.

[Mach2]

Wow. Anything else you can tell us about Irving?

I asked him about Albert Speer since Irving interviewed him in the 60s. He said "Speer got to the top by climbing on top of dead bodies". He stated that Speer didn't write all his Spandau memiors. Irving had a bad opinion of Speer both personally, professionally and historically. This surprised me because Speer is sometimes called 'the good nasi".

(For those who don't know about Speer.)Nuremberg was kind to speer thinking Speer was a decent man caught up in a whirlwind so Speer escaped the noose. If Nuremberg reconvened today I'm sure Speer would be hung this time. He fooled the Nuremberg judges the first time though because the other defendents were so bad it made Speer appear as good. Either that or Speer just fooled the judges.

[AaronVail]

I asked him about Albert Speer since Irving interviewed him in the 60s. He said "Speer got to the top by climbing on top of dead bodies". He stated that Speer didn't write all his Spandau memiors. Irving had a bad opinion of Speer both personally, professionally and historically. This surprised me because Speer is sometimes called 'the good nasi".

(For those who don't know about Speer.)Nuremberg was kind to speer thinking Speer was a decent man caught up in a whirlwind so Speer escaped the noose. If Nuremberg reconvened today I'm sure Speer would be hung this time. He fooled the Nuremberg judges the first time though because the other defendents were so bad it made Speer appear as good. Either that or Speer just fooled the judges.

Yeah, he definitely knew about the forced labour in the camps. Joachim Fest's, Speer: The Final Verdict, paints a different picture of the "good Nazi".

There's a good website called Third Reich Ruins www.thirdreichruins.com which I found a while ago which kickstarted my interest in the war.

[midnitelamp]

Speer made a good impression on the Strategic Bombing Survey Committee,opposed thhe Goering group at the trial,and more or less plead guilty.

OTOH,he sandbagged on the IQ test while in custody,which must have been seen as a scam,his Sub ordinate Sauckel hanged,and the court never saw the pictures of Speer with Hitler in Paris,etc.

Striecher was disgusting,but never held any position of authority,as the other defendants. He may have hanged,but should have been in a different court.

Fritzsche was acquitted,and from evidence in Goebbels diaries, ol'Hans was a dupe. It has been suggested the only reason he was prosecuted was he was one of the few prisoners of any note the Russians had taken,and was a surrogate for his boss.

No real points here,just ramblng as i doze off.

[JimC]

The "good" Nazi?

Kinda like Paul was the "cute" Beatle?

I know many people probably joined the party out of social pressure and fear; and never really believed in the ideals.

Of those who actually subscribed to the ideals; there were no good Nazis; of course.