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Thread: Jon Benet Ramsey

  1. #101
    djdeath-hag Guest
    I have to agree with Jack & GeekyGirl.....having read & viewed much, if not all of everything that has been out there on this case. Pagent-obsessed mother does not a murderer make. I'm not denouncing anything posted by others here, this is truly a mystery....one that I hope will be solved in my lifetime. I call on the spirits of Lucille Ball & Andy Warhol to guide us all to the truth. (Only because, like me & JonBenet, they were also born on 8/6) Perhaps we can hope for not only resolution in the case but also look for a really spine-chilling movie, written & directed by M. Knight Shyamalan, who also shares our birthday, in the same quality of his masterpiece "The Sixth Sense".

    I do wonder where this story would have been, had Jon Benet been a child of color, from a family of modest means.


    ***The most impressive thing about the discussions & disagreements here, in my opinion, is that we're all being respectful & non-political! Kucinich 2012!!!
    Last edited by djdeath-hag; 04-14-2008 at 09:23 PM. Reason: added a much needed, light-hearted post script

  2. #102
    deathhagcutie Guest
    weren't her death photos up here at one time?

  3. #103
    Lucy Furr Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by KELT View Post
    That's what I had always thought as well. As if the parents set the rest of the stage because they were not going to lose both of their children. (And) don't forget that BURKE had hit JON BENET upside her head with a golf club 6 months before her murder. That was documented at the pediatrican's.

    Were it an outsider, then explain the rambling ransom note. Any criminologist will tell you that a criminal with illegal intent wants to get in, do the crime & get out as quickly. What kidnapper would wait until they were in the house to find paper & pen on which to write a 2 1/2 page ransom note that the police figure took over 20 minutes to concoct ?

    (And) if the purpose was a kidnapping, why was the body left in the house ?

    The 'Small Foreign Faction' listed in the letter as being behind it all never contacted the RAMSEYS.

    If the purpose for the crime was a sick pedophile who wanted to sexually assault and murder the little girl , then why the pretense of the ransom note ?

    The fact that the ransom note was written on a pad of paper that belonged to the RAMSEYS.

    The alleged ranson amount just happened to match the amount that JOHN RAMSEY received as a bonus that year.

    The whole thing reeks ! I don't believe that the father did it. I have no doubt that the mother wrote the ransom note. I think that either the mother or the brother BURKE committed the crime and that other things were done to the body to throw the police.
    Creepy possibility, I have to admit I never really gave Burke a second thought. Just think, if Burke had committed the murder it makes ya wonder if this was only the beginning. The weight of killing someone, I'd assume, would be hell to carry much less if it were your younger sister. No one could live with that without acting out in some manner later on in life. I suppose only time will tell...

    that's it, no more horror flicks for me, man.

  4. #104
    Lucy Furr Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by deathhagcutie View Post
    weren't her death photos up here at one time?
    Her autopsy pics, yes. They are heartbreaking but not "gruesome" (in case ya wanna check 'em out but you are a little skeeved out being that she's a child):

    http://zyberzoom.com/JonBenet.html

  5. #105
    ApricotRoses Guest
    National Enquirer. I don't read that.

  6. #106
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    I don't think Burke personally had anything to do with the murder, but I think it could have been someone who knew and associated with Burke. Plus, the DNA cleared Burke and he was ruled out. I just wonder though if perhaps a Dad or an older brother of one of his friends, a teen ager who might have tutored him, the Dad or older brother of a baby sitter, a little league coach, etc. Again, the letter itself is not well-written, so I don't think the murderer had a good education. The religious references of the letter though might indicate it was someone from their church, perhaps the Ramsey's had a church potluck at their house and the murderer was in attendance.

    It's really kind of scary because we are very active in our community, including church, school, both boy scouts and cub scouts,and various sports leagues. We have had events through the years at our house and some people came who we hadn't even met before (the husband of one of the women from church, the Dad of one of the kids from the football league, the boyfriend of the older sister of one of our boy's classmates, etc.). Any of them would have had the full opportunity to case our house, get the layout, see where the back door is (we don't have a basement). It's scary in that any of these people, in addition to the folks we already know, could be murderers and/or child molesters.

    But I do check the California State "Megan's Law" website often, which identifies any known sex offenders and lists their current address, offense and mugshot. My husband always told me that I was paranoid and watching too much CSI... until the day I found one of our church members on the site. Horrifying, he was the Dad of one of my son's classmates, and both my son and his classmate were in the children's choir. Guess who would always sit in the pew right behind where the children would sit? I didn't notify the church officials because he is from a very prominent and trustworthy family who also attended our church. A member of his family would always be with him, and our bet was they were "babysitting" him, making sure he didn't do anything inappropriate. But I can tell you I was always aware of where he was in relation to my child. He is no longer on the "Megan's Law" website, but I still look for him at any of the school/church events. I'm pointing this out because a child molester can be from a good family. He was also good-looking and dressed well, kind of like the all-american Dad, you never would have guessed in a million years that this guy was a convicted sex offender.

    Regarding Burke hitting JB in the head with a golf club, OMG, both my boys could be potential murderers then. My 8 year-old is always hitting my 11 year-old, and my 11 year-old is always hitting my 8 year-old. Both have at one time or another caused blood wounds to each other. They will fight like wild cats and then without explanation will suddenly be each other's friends. In all cases where one of my kids pummel each other and/or draw blood, they are immediately disciplined. Of course, when they draw blood or cause bruises, the discipline is more severe. What always amazes me is the victim brother will always start arguing in defense of the assaulting brother, saying that we are being too harsh. I've talked to my friends who have kids and they experience the same thing.

    Like one of the other posts said earlier, the JBR murder case doesn't need to be argued about because all of us, no matter what we think what happened, is all speculation at this point. Until they get a DNA match, all bets are off. Since child molesters have a very high recidivism rate, I would think -- and hope -- that they would get a DNA match sooner rather than later. God, I wish all of us death hags could be assigned to this case. As a group, I think we are incredibly intelligent AND passionate about our beliefs. We'd collectively be able to solve this tragedy in less that a month -- or sooner.
    Last edited by geekygirl; 04-15-2008 at 03:09 PM.
    Any day above ground is a good day.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack-O-Lantern View Post
    Neither Burke nor JonBenet were ever abused in any way, nor was John Ramsey's older daughter by a previous marriage, who had earlier been killed in a car accident.
    Gosh, how sad. I never knew that there was an older sister by John's previous marriage who was killed in a car accident. John and Burke have certainly had their share of death.
    Any day above ground is a good day.

  8. #108
    cachluv Guest
    Here's some interesting stuff on what crazy-ass Karr said to police (some of it's pretty graphic):

    What Happened According to Karr
    • Entry at 5:00 PM. Karr claims he entered the house at 5:00 when the Ramseys left for the White's.
    • Killing was "Accidental." Karr has said publicly he was with the 6-year-old when she died and called her death ??an accident? See video. A preliminary transcript by Internet poster Margoo is here.
    • According to the Modesto Bee, "Thai officials held a news conference, at which Karr appeared briefly. Suwat said Karr insisted his crime was not first-degree murder. "He said it was second-degree murder. He said it was unintentional. He said he was in love with the child," Suwat said. The Thai officer quoted the suspect as saying he tried to kidnap JonBenét for a $118,000 ransom but that his plan went awry and he strangled her to death."
    • Full Details. The arrest warrant provides full details of the account provided to Michael Tracey via an extended series of emails. Karr claims a) to have entered through the basement window; b) carried JBR from her bed (without using a stun gun); c) hung her in the basement vertically while he asphyxiated her with a garrote while sexually assaulting her orally; d) accidently killing her in the process because in his passion, he hadn't paid attention to the length of time she was being asphyxiated; e) then deliberately striking her with a head blow to be certain she was dead (for fear that she might awake and suffer once he left or might be brain-injured); f) placing on her mouth a piece of duct tape from the flashlight he had brought (and then unexpectedly had to use to kill her); g) piercing her vagina 3 times so he could taste her blood; h) then walking upstairs to leave the RN in her bed, but upon hearing a noise upstairs instead left the note on the stairs and quickly hurried back to the basement, h) abandoned his plans to take her body with him for fear of detection; i) undressed her when he saw she had urinated, putting on oversize panties and taking with him her "knickers"; and j) exiting through the basement window and taking with him the flashlight. This account "ties together" much of the evidence at the crime scene, though not a single detail of this was unknown to those who have followed the case for years, as Karr did. One inconsistency is that no marks were found on JBR's wrists, suggesting the claim she had been hung for an extended period by her wrists to be a fabrication.
    What May Have Happened
    • Karr and Accomplice. Internet poster vaughancauthen(posted 1:39 PM,, 9/29/06) has postulated that Karr was at the crime scene with a female accomplice but he did not actually do the killing.
    Incriminating Evidence

    Confession
    • Reuters reported that Karr had confessed to elements of the murder that were not available to the general public, but these details have not yet been released to the public.
    • In his second interview with a Boulder investigator while still in Thailand, Karr allegedly said "If you don't let me plead guilty, how will you feel? How will you live with yourself when I kill a little girl?"
    • Readers can judge the credibility of the confession from the video.
    • Change in Demeanor. According to 48 Hours, November 25, 2006, Homeland Security investigators report that when Karr described how he delivered the head blow, his demeanor changed markedly.
    • 1997 Confession? Internet poster Evening2 saw a clip on Rita Cosby on 8/25/06 in which they interviewed Wendy Nichols, a school bus driver who wrote to Boulder DA on August 19, 2006. Evening2 states: "In spring, 1997, while she and John Karr were visiting, in her home, about computers, he went from being totally relaxed until something came on the TV about the Ramsey case at which point it seemed like he was arguing with the TV, and he turned into a different person, arguing with the TV, you are so stupid, I can tell you about footprints in the snow, I can tell you, I know, I was there. He didn't say he killed JonBenet but said he was there." A NY Post account is here.
    • Karr's confession on the phone conversations "explain" many puzzling details that heretofore did not seem to "hang together" especially with respect to an intruder:
    1. Time to Write RN. Karr confirmed what others had speculated, that he was in the house several hours and had plenty of time to write note prior to taking JBR from her bed.
    2. Sloppiness of Handwriting. Karr reports writing the note in the dark in John and Patsy Ramsey's bedroom; moreover, by self-report, he normally has very precise handwriting, so he deliberately sought to use a style that would not be recognized.
    3. Deliberate Misspellings. Many have viewed some of the sophisticated language of the note (e.g., attache) with misspellings and "tough talk" as evidence that the note was fabricated by someone with more education. Karr is highly intelligent and was simply writing a ransom note in the style he presumed would be typical. He thought the allusion to a "foreign faction" and "beheading" would be taken seriously. All the language about "monitoring" and "early pickup" was just a fabrication. Karr had no plans or capability of following up on these threats.
    4. Kidnapping Intentions. At the time he wrote the note, Karr claims not to know whether he would take JBR or not; it was definitely a possibility; even after she was dead, he was still considering this option (even though he hadn't worked through the details), but abandoned it when he thought he heard voices while he had returned to the kitchen to leave the ransom note.
    5. Animosity Towards John. Karr's background "explains" many of the elements in the RN. He claims to have grown up in a family wealthier than the Ramseys and to have known Ramseys in Georgia, hence the allusions to "fat cats" and "good southern common sense" are very consistent with his frame of mind. Likewise, he reports never liking the fathers of little girls and in many cases being able to "bond" with their mothers, hence it made much more sense to target the note at John rather than Patsy or even both of them.

  9. #109
    cachluv Guest
    1. Getting Her Out of Bedroom. Karr reports that she slept the entire way from bed to basement,hence there is no need to explain why she didn't resist or cry out. In addition, while there is no independent corroborating evidence that he had met JBR before that night, his account taken at face value implies that when she did wake up, she was not alarmed because she knew and trusted him already.
    2. What Happened to Panties. JBR was found in panties that were obviously over-sized. Given the trauma to her vagina, it was clear she had been re-dressed. If she were killed by an intruder, why redress her at all and why use the wrong size panties? Since JBR allegedly was asleep when she got home, she was wearing to bed the same panties she'd worn to the party; but it would make no sense for her to wear such obviously over-sized panties as they either would make her uncomfortable or her mother would insist on her changing them to avoid public embarrassment. It didn't really make sense for either an intruder or the parents to put her in wrong-sized panties, but if they had, what happened to the correct-sized pair presumably worn to the party? Karr's account explains this. He had always intended to take the panties as a souvenir (he allegedly had an entire collection from other trysts with little girls) and hence while waiting for Ramseys to return had gone into her drawers to pick out a pair to re-dress her in. It wasn't until he tried to put them on in the basement that he realized they were the wrong size and it was too late to switch. This did not deflect him from his plan to take away her original panties, which he allegedly did in his Gothic Box.
    3. Nature of Assault. The assault on JBR always was an odd mixture of brutality (the head blow) and "gentleness." There were sexual elements of the crime, yet no semen or signs of penile penetration of the vagina, which would have been expected from a "standard" sexual predator. Conversely, pedophiles don't typically kill their victims, nor would conventional killers have any interest in penetrating her vagina with a paintbrush. Karr's account only alludes to oral sex (consistent with the forensic evidence of saliva in JBR's panties), but he also provides an explanation for why the vagina was pierced with the end of the paintbrush, drawing blood (so he could drink some: this account is nauseating to hear on tape, yet "rings true" in light of Karr's self-acknowledged oddness and Catholic upbringing; one can imagine someone with Karr's sexual proclivities thinking in this fashion). The death itself was accidental--a sexual asphyxiation "game" gone awry, just as Cyril Wecht has always proposed (though he had another perp in mind)--and the head blow was NOT intended as a cover-up but instead because Karr became preoccupied with a concern that JBR would be found brain-dead and be kept alive in a persistent vegetative state; in short, it was a "mercy" killing motivated by love, not either the intentional act of a brutal killer or an accidental consequence of "toilet rage." The paintbrush penetration occurred after her death, hence inflicted no pain etc.
    4. Hair in Ligature. JBR's hair in the garotte was always "proof" that the ligature was tied while on her neck instead of the "conventional" way in which a professional killer would assault a victim, by creating the ligature first and then looping it over the victim's head. Thus, it was always interpreted as proof of after-the-fact "staging." Since there would be no reason for an intruder to stage anything, this was presumed to be important evidence pointing towards the parents. But in Karr's account of a love-making tryst, the ligature is a "necklace" put onto JBR with her permission and assembled (i.e., knots tied) much as a mother would braid a child's hair, from behind. JBR allegedly was preoccupied by playing with Karr's Gothic box and hence was in no way alarmed by or struggling against his efforts to fasten the ligature.
    5. Placement of Body. There always seemed to be a "disconnect" between the brutality of the crime and the care that appeared to go into redressing JBR and wrapping her papoose-like and placing her in the wine cellar. Yet why would someone who cared so much also leave her in such a dark, dismal place with her hands still tied over her head? Karr's account explains all of this (though he never really explains why he didn't at least untie her hands: perhaps he planned to do so upon his return). He did redress her (he enjoyed dressing little girls) and he also took care to wrap her in a blanket because he didn't want her to be cold; he claims this was his "way" with little girls. He always took care to return them to their parents/homes in the same way that he found them. But he also describes placement in the room as "temporary." He himself recognizes that it was irrational to think that anyone could possibly see JBR while he was gone for just a very brief time, but that's the way he was thinking at the time. His plan after placing the RN was to return and take her with him, but that plan was thwarted.
    6. Placement of RN. Many have thought it suspicious that the RN would be left on the back staircase normally used by Patsy rather than the main staircase to the second floor. How would a stranger intruder have known Patsy's habits? Karr states that his original intention was to leave the note in JBR's bedroom (a more "logical" place); indeed, he says he would have had JBR herself leave it there had he opted to take her. But his plans were thwarted by hearing a voice upstairs so he instead left it on the stairs.
    7. Little "Retro-fitting of Available Evidence. Karr's confession is somewhat more believable in that he insisted on some "quirky" details that did not easily fit into some conventional views of the case, suggesting he was not trying to "retrofit" his account to fit the known facts. These include:
    8. No Stun Gun. His insistence that no stun gun was used and not being able to fully account for the marks on JBR's face and back.
    9. No Hidden Meaning in SBTC. Karr said these were just nonsense letters that had no particular meaning.
    10. No Movie Lines. Despite all the armchair sleuthing about which lines in the RN came from various movies, Karr insists that NONE of them knowingly did and expresses astonishment to learn that any did etc.
    11. Significance of $118,000. Many had speculated that this represented the amount of John Ramsey's bonus, an amount that Karr in theory would have had plenty of time to discover given the time he was in the house. Instead, he explains the amount as being small enough to be readily affordable, i.e., $100,000 and then he tacked on another $18K because 18 was the age of consent (others have pointed out the actual age of consent was much lower than 18, but the issue is what Karr believed at the time he wrote the note: given that he trafficked in 6 year olds, there's no reason he would have needed to know the actual age of consent in Colorado, since 6 was obviously well below it).
    There's more--
    http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/John%20Mark%20Karr

  10. #110
    cachluv Guest
    I posted this earlier in the thread (back in the fall):

    You guys, check this out:

    http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/thema...innocent.shtml

    I make no claims on believability, but it's a hell of a read......

    I can't decide if the parents had a hand in the death but they DEFINITELY know more than they ever let on.

  11. #111
    MissLissa Guest
    For me it has always been Patsy. I know you can't arrest people on vibes but when everyone was saying it was the Dad,I was like no,it's the Mom.The more I listened to news and interviews it just solidified my gut instinct. For me ,the pineapple in Jon Benets stomach cannot be explained away.They said she was asleep when they got home, and they put her to bed. They found a bowl of pineapple on the table with Patsy and Burkes fingerprints. NO WAY an intruder sat at the table and fed her pineapple. She woke up sometime in the night.Her pajama bottoms and urine stained panties in the bathroom.SHE GOT UP,she had to of.If Patsy did nothing wrong,why wouldn't she just admit that.Their whole story makes no sense. No intruder sits in the house that long and risks getting caught.Takes time to write the ransom note in the house.It just doesn't vibe for me. Just my opinion though.

  12. #112
    MissLissa Guest
    I also agree with an earlier poster who said it bothered her the way Patsy kept saying "That Child". It was just wierd.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissLissa View Post
    For me it has always been Patsy. I know you can't arrest people on vibes but when everyone was saying it was the Dad,I was like no,it's the Mom.The more I listened to news and interviews it just solidified my gut instinct. For me ,the pineapple in Jon Benets stomach cannot be explained away.They said she was asleep when they got home, and they put her to bed. They found a bowl of pineapple on the table with Patsy and Burkes fingerprints. NO WAY an intruder sat at the table and fed her pineapple. She woke up sometime in the night.Her pajama bottoms and urine stained panties in the bathroom.SHE GOT UP,she had to of.If Patsy did nothing wrong,why wouldn't she just admit that.Their whole story makes no sense. No intruder sits in the house that long and risks getting caught.Takes time to write the ransom note in the house.It just doesn't vibe for me. Just my opinion though.
    My mother, who was 77 years old and suffering from the end stages of Alzheimer's disease, was put into a convalescent home after undergoing minor surgery to remove a polyp from her colon. My Mom was doing great, all things considered, and was just put in the convalescent home for physical therapy to walk more steadily. She was scheduled to go home later that day, when during lunch she choked on a piece of pineapple and went into a coma due to lack of oxygen for about ten minutes until they were unable to dislodge the pineapple. My Mom died about three weeks later.

    Since then, I have always remained eerily suspicious of pineapple in general, and now this news about the pineapple in JB's stomach. Maybe the pineapple did it????







    I know, this is really off-the-wall humor, but it really did cross my mind after what happened to my Mom. I am one strange bird.
    Any day above ground is a good day.

  14. #114
    Deathgoddess Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by cachluv View Post
    I posted this earlier in the thread (back in the fall):

    You guys, check this out:

    http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/thema...innocent.shtml

    I make no claims on believability, but it's a hell of a read......

    I can't decide if the parents had a hand in the death but they DEFINITELY know more than they ever let on.

    That is the weirdest thing ever, but very interesting.

  15. #115
    cachluv Guest
    It really IS wierd, but wierd stuff happens all the time. Like I say, I can't fully back that theory in the link but it rings alot of bells and I was uncomfortable reading it, aside from obvous reasons, because of the bells I heard ringing vs. this whole case and scenario and whatever hard facts there are.

    Yes, it's a wierd theory but it was all worked out very well before whomever decided to present it

  16. #116
    tommyjox Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by cachluv View Post
    I posted this earlier in the thread (back in the fall):

    You guys, check this out:

    http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/thema...innocent.shtml

    I make no claims on believability, but it's a hell of a read......

    I can't decide if the parents had a hand in the death but they DEFINITELY know more than they ever let on.
    WOW! awsome post.

    Good read for sure, most interesting about the 118,000 ransom figure, and how the ransom note is "disected".

  17. #117
    cachluv Guest
    And..like someone said above, I'm not buying that a kidnapper had time to sit there and write that long letter.

    There's too much fishy stuff. I am not ready to blame the parents, that is heavy. But I definitely am 100% that they knew/know more than they let on to.

  18. #118
    tommyjox Guest
    If anyone knows Anything and they are not coming forward then they are just as guilty.

    The report from the link you provided really made me think.

    I think the Mrs did it.
    Its a matter of what Mr Ramsey knows and is covering up or just does not want to believe. It's too late for him to come forward now with anything differnt than he has already provided.

    Too much time has passed and no one has talked. That leads me to think the guilty party is "indisposed"....or dead.

    Whenever I think "A parent could not kill their children" I think of the mother in Union, SC who drove into the lake with the kids in the backseat.
    Because her boyfriend would not want her kids if she were to divorce her current husband.

    Anything, no matter how horrific is possible.

    Sorry if I am starting to ramble, this case an a few others bother me, when Law Enforcement does not do their job.

  19. #119
    ApricotRoses Guest
    Very sadly, there are MANY mothers who kill their children. So many true crime books to read on that subject. I have a hard time with those. Oh well, we all have our opinions, and we can speculate till the cows come home, but this case will probably never be solved.

  20. #120
    Snoopy Guest
    Wow..that was a very interesting read! I also believe that Mrs. Ramsey was totally involved..and Mr. helped to cover it up..it's so sad that there probably never will be justice for that little girl.

  21. #121
    lisalouver Guest
    I've picked up more than my share of dead kids at scenes from everything you can imagine.

    Still, this one is bothersome.

    I don't know what to think to this day, and I investigate death for a living.

  22. #122
    cachluv Guest
    I don't want to make it sound like I think that just because someone acts fishy, there's a tuna boat near. It's possible that the parents were not guilty or don't know anything but they sure as hell acted wierd.

    It's possible for two sides of any story to be conflicting--a good example of that is O.J. People were convinced (at first) that he didn't do it and cited the fact that the police tampered with evidence, conducted a shoddy investigation because they were convinced he was guilty right off the bat, and some of the police were proven to be racist. No one ever contested these things: bad police work, unethical methods and racism were definitely involved (racism from BOTH sides...) But----O.J. still did it.

    I just hate to see it all dropped in mid-air. That little girl deserves better. And so does her killer.

  23. #123
    lisalouver Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by cachluv View Post
    I don't want to make it sound like I think that just because someone acts fishy, there's a tuna boat near. It's possible that the parents were not guilty or don't know anything but they sure as hell acted wierd.

    It's possible for two sides of any story to be conflicting--a good example of that is O.J. People were convinced (at first) that he didn't do it and cited the fact that the police tampered with evidence, conducted a shoddy investigation because they were convinced he was guilty right off the bat, and some of the police were proven to be racist. No one ever contested these things: bad police work, unethical methods and racism were definitely involved (racism from BOTH sides...) But----O.J. still did it.

    I just hate to see it all dropped in mid-air. That little girl deserves better. And so does her killer.

    Yea, great post cach.

    It's just hard for me to say one way or another on this one. I just can not come up with something I can take to the bank, so I ride the fence.

    I hate that it will in all liklihood, never be solved.

  24. #124
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    I am betting on someone from their church with a background in law enforcement, or someone from law enforcement with a fanatical religious background. They have stayed quiet because they truly think they did the right thing. Perhaps their mindset is like other child killers, that the child would go to hell if they weren't killed before the age of reason. The provocative beauty contests that JB took part in might have been the catalyst for the crime.

    Again, the DNA is still the smoking gun. As technology improves, eventually they will find a match.

    P.S. -- there have been some views that JB was forced into the beauty contests and that she would have never wanted to participate if it weren't for her wacko mother. If I had ever gotten the opportunity as a child to dress up in beautiful outfits and wear makeup, I would have jumped at the chance. I began wearing sparkly nail polish, clear lip gloss (that came in a liptstick-like tube) and a light perfume at the age of four, on my own, with no encouragement from anyone. I am a girly girl through and through and would have absolutely loved the experience. Even tonight, I went to a "Fragrance Festival" at Nordstrom and had a fabulous time! In addition to that, I have been a Mary Kay independent beauty consultant and love that too! I can totally understand how both a mother and daughter would have enjoyed the whole beauty pageant scene.
    Any day above ground is a good day.

  25. #125
    hotmama Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack-O-Lantern View Post
    JonBenet had never been sexually molested previously, the family doctor attested to this at the Grand Jury hearing, and her medical records verified that fact.
    i heard there were signs of sexual abuse before and of course the doc or medical examiner would clean that up if it was true.

  26. #126
    cachluv Guest
    http://www.konformist.com/jonbenet.htm

    Awhile back I had heard something about John Ramseys' work computers being used to download kiddie porn. I never heard of it again but it's mentioned in this article (above).

    I had also heard of Woody Allen's alleged child-molestation, err, ahhh, situations which is also mentioned in this link above. This stuff gets swept under the carpet so often....there's a lot more to this article, it's long, but a great read if you keep an open mind and neither believe nor disbelieve what you read.
    Last edited by cachluv; 04-20-2008 at 07:32 AM.

  27. #127
    corncountychoppr Guest
    Update on Burke Ramsey from Forums For Justice.com
    Burke just turned 21 in january
    For some unclear reason, he also decided to leave Purdue University for his senior year and attend Georgia State University. According to the university directory, he seems to have abandoned his Purdue major in computer science, and at GSU has decided to attend the Robinson College of Business for his MBA.

    OH!

    I GET IT!

    Now I know why John changed his resident status from Michigan to Georgia in January of 2007! According to GSU rules, "To be awarded the in-state tuition rate, you must demonstrate that you, your parent, your spouse or your court-appointed guardian (if you are a minor) is a legal resident of Georgia for tuition purposes."

    Apparently John wants to run for congress in Michigan yet claim to be a Georgia
    citizen to get a break on Burkes tuition.
    John seems to know how to work the system to his favor.. yet again
    I live in Lafayette where Purdue is .. I hoped to see Burke out and about on the town
    just to look in his eyes and see if they were the eyes of a killer or of a grieving brother... wont get the chance now ..
    I think Jon Benet was killed by a sophisticated killer who had done this type crime or
    elements of it before.. that would presume to rule family involvement out
    But then again .. who knows what John Ramsey did on his business trips to Asia

  28. #128
    cachluv Guest

    911 call from Patsy Ramsey

    Click on the link below. Crank it up loudly. Listen to Patsy’s hyperventilation. Then after the operator says “Patsy” for the fourth time listen carefully. You will hear the hyperventilating Patsy say, “Help me Jesus, help me Jesus, help me Jesus.”

    Listen to the call at http://www.acandyrose.com/patsy911-FFJ.mp3

    How come some news channels played the tape and automatically cut if off at the end, while others played the tape and (through analysis and enhancement to eliminate white or other backround noise) to the end??
    Apparently, quite plainly, Lin Wood lied about the end of the tape.




    Check out the whole website devoted to JonBenet and other 'cold' cases...

    http://acandyrose.com/

    There is MUCH mention of the duct tape and cord and why the lengths were "unusual". MUCH mention of Patsy's sister readily and easily removing items from the home the next day.
    Last edited by cachluv; 04-20-2008 at 08:33 AM.

  29. #129
    Mrs. Watson Guest
    I wonder if Beth Holloway Twitty and John Ramsey are still together. That has to be one of the most bizzare match-ups ever.

  30. #130
    cachluv Guest
    They are. And yes, it is.

  31. #131
    Deathgoddess Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by geekygirl View Post

    P.S. -- there have been some views that JB was forced into the beauty contests and that she would have never wanted to participate if it weren't for her wacko mother. If I had ever gotten the opportunity as a child to dress up in beautiful outfits and wear makeup, I would have jumped at the chance. I began wearing sparkly nail polish, clear lip gloss (that came in a liptstick-like tube) and a light perfume at the age of four, on my own, with no encouragement from anyone. I am a girly girl through and through and would have absolutely loved the experience. Even tonight, I went to a "Fragrance Festival" at Nordstrom and had a fabulous time! In addition to that, I have been a Mary Kay independent beauty consultant and love that too! I can totally understand how both a mother and daughter would have enjoyed the whole beauty pageant scene.

    I think you are kind of right but there is a line and Patsy crossed it. Of course any little girl wants to wear some makeup and a pretty dress, but that little girl had LOTs of Makeup and LOts of pretty dresses and costumes, not to mention all of the work that went along with those routines.

    I just don't know that it was "fun" for JB, it seems like a lot of hard work for a 5 year old. If she were in a few beauty pagents here and there and wore a little lip gloss i would say okay, but all the footage they had of her performing with tons of make up makes me think it was like a career for her Mother.

    JMO

  32. #132
    cachluv Guest
    I would be afraid of teaching my daughter that outer appearance is more important than her inner self and worth which is exactly what it seems like the mothers pushing their daughters into such a superficial lifestyle actually is. Or that the outer appearance of others is at some sub-level to her own--competition is a slippery slope. I would never even allow my child to compete against anyone else to see who's prettier, more "lady-like" or in any other way who's more manufactured. Personally, coming from a hippie, I think that is sick. I think it encourages dissention among women, young and old. Without being at all anti-man, I am VERY pro-sisterhood.

    When I was a kid, I worshipped late make-up stylist Way Bandy. I wanted to make people up for living and planned to live in NY and be very famous doing it. As I got older, I lost interest in faking my outer appearance, developed other interests that I can actually use in life, and simply got sucked into just trying to survive my dysfunctional family

    If my daughter picked this up on her own, different story, but I would make sure she knew other vital aspects of life and how to function independently and that she also had other interests in order to make her every kind of woman that she could be. Doesn't look like JonBenet was encouraged to be anything other than a showpiece. A superficial little automaton, trained to please others. Seeing a little kid wearing makeup like a 25 yr old woman and bumping and grinding her way down a catwalk.....I think a parent should be carried out back and shot for taking childhood away like that. Sick.

  33. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack-O-Lantern View Post
    JonBenet had never been sexually molested previously, the family doctor attested to this at the Grand Jury hearing, and her medical records verified that fact.
    What I want to know is HOW the family doctor knew this? I mean, my child is almost three years old, and so far her doctors haven't looked at her private parts to check if she's been molested as part of a check up. Was there some sort of concern that Jon Benet WAS being molested before her death that made the doctor check her out? I'm just sort of confused at this one.

    "Death doesn't really worry me that much, I'm not frightened about it... I just don't want to be there when it happens."

  34. #134
    Snoopy Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by sordid1982 View Post
    What I want to know is HOW the family doctor knew this? I mean, my child is almost three years old, and so far her doctors haven't looked at her private parts to check if she's been molested as part of a check up. Was there some sort of concern that Jon Benet WAS being molested before her death that made the doctor check her out? I'm just sort of confused at this one.
    My thoughts exactly! How WOULD that Dr. know about that by examining a child at that young age..UNLESS he had reason to examine her private areas.You just do do those kind of exams on young children without a very good reason! The whole thing just seemed weird and creepy for the start!

  35. #135
    Jack-O-Lantern Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by sordid1982 View Post
    What I want to know is HOW the family doctor knew this? I mean, my child is almost three years old, and so far her doctors haven't looked at her private parts to check if she's been molested as part of a check up. Was there some sort of concern that Jon Benet WAS being molested before her death that made the doctor check her out? I'm just sort of confused at this one.
    No, there wasn't any such concern--she wasn't checked to see if she had been molested. JonBenet had evidently experienced some chafing/rash issues from the bedwetting, and her doctor had recently been asked to look into it because she had been experiencing some resultant discomfort.

  36. #136
    Lucy Furr Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    My thoughts exactly! How WOULD that Dr. know about that by examining a child at that young age..UNLESS he had reason to examine her private areas.You just do do those kind of exams on young children without a very good reason! The whole thing just seemed weird and creepy for the start!
    I think it would be a regular part of investigating the brutal death of a child. Despite it not being a regular part of a child's check up, this differs from the norm-if put into a questionable situation my first thought would be to check for molestation, at the very least some form of immediate sexual violation at which time I'm sure you could find long term signs.
    Last edited by Lucy Furr; 04-20-2008 at 01:23 PM.

  37. #137
    Jack-O-Lantern Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by hotmama View Post
    i heard there were signs of sexual abuse before and of course the doc or medical examiner would clean that up if it was true.
    Yes but where did you "hear" this, and why would a doctor (and the medical examiner too?) risk their reputations and careers for Patsy Ramsey by "cleaning up" the results of a crime scene/murder investigation? Why would they do that? What was in it for them?
    There's so much misinformation and so many outright lies out there that, again, one could literally go insane sifting through all the b.s. The molestation issue (prior to the murder) is a moot point--it was proven in a court of law that that was not the case. But the urban myths continue to roll on...and this thread proves that controversy will ALWAYS surround this case, though most of it is based on urban myth and speculation, unfortunately. These people were tried and convicted by the media and, resultantly, by the public because of an inherent distaste for the child's mother's strong personality and her being an obvious stage mother to some degree--which I guess morphs her somehow into being a murderer also?

  38. #138
    Lucy Furr Guest
    Maybe it was the bed wetting that fueled the theory. Bed wetting as a result of molestation is one of the typically examined causes by doctors being that it falls under the "psychological issues" tag.

  39. #139
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by sordid1982 View Post
    What I want to know is HOW the family doctor knew this? I mean, my child is almost three years old, and so far her doctors haven't looked at her private parts to check if she's been molested as part of a check up. Was there some sort of concern that Jon Benet WAS being molested before her death that made the doctor check her out? I'm just sort of confused at this one.
    JB could have been experiencing recurrent bladder infections due to her bedwetting. But recurrent bladder infections can also be a sign of child abuse. The doctor could have checked out her vagina, looking for any tears and such, which obviously would be a sign of sexual abuse.

    I personally had bladder infections when I was a little girl, not because of bedwetting, but because I wasn't wiping myself well enough and also wore dirty underwear three days in a row (sometimes both my Mom and Dad, who were workaholics, wouldn't have time to do the laundry).
    Any day above ground is a good day.

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by cachluv View Post
    Click on the link below. Crank it up loudly. Listen to Patsy??s hyperventilation. Then after the operator says ??Patsy? for the fourth time listen carefully. You will hear the hyperventilating Patsy say, ??Help me Jesus, help me Jesus, help me Jesus.?

    Listen to the call at http://www.acandyrose.com/patsy911-FFJ.mp3

    How come some news channels played the tape and automatically cut if off at the end, while others played the tape and (through analysis and enhancement to eliminate white or other backround noise) to the end??
    Apparently, quite plainly, Lin Wood lied about the end of the tape.




    Check out the whole website devoted to JonBenet and other 'cold' cases...

    http://acandyrose.com/

    There is MUCH mention of the duct tape and cord and why the lengths were "unusual". MUCH mention of Patsy's sister readily and easily removing items from the home the next day.
    So what do you think the significance is in Patsy saying ??Help me Jesus, help me Jesus, help me Jesus? to the 911 operator?
    Any day above ground is a good day.

  41. #141
    cachluv Guest
    None really, the point of mentioning this was that most TV stations who played the tape cut it off right before then and said there was nothing else. So this proves there was more to the recording. Pointing out that you can hear something is just to let folks know that someone was still on the line, and further analysis reveals other male voices in the backround.

    And my beloved Jack, --no one is asserting that Patsy was the murderer at all, let alone just because she had a strong personality. We are just saying that things are not right. Something was/is wrong with the Ramsey's, minimally people think that they knew/know something and have not nor will ever tell what they know. That's all I can be sure of. The family knew/knows something. There's too much evidence that came from inside the house that just doesn't fit.

  42. #142
    Snoopy Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy Furr View Post
    I think it would be a regular part of investigating the brutal death of a child. Despite it not being a regular part of a child's check up, this differs from the norm-if put into a questionable situation my first thought would be to check for molestation, at the very least some form of immediate sexual violation at which time I'm sure you could find long term signs.
    You're right..never thought of that.

  43. #143
    cherryghost Guest
    Patsy Ramsey reminded me a little of Lindy Chamberlain the Australian woman accused of murdering Azaria when she cried "a dingo took my baby" A dingo actually did but she went to jail and it took yrs for her to be cleared and released.

    Patsy didnt put a sympathetic face across, I dont think people liked her and that was a good enough reason to think she was involved!

    I always sensed it may have been someone obscure who had watched Jon Benet for some time and knew the comings and goings of the family but whom the family wasnt that aware of!

  44. #144
    Mrs. Watson Guest
    JonBenet went to the doctor a lot for a child her age who was "healthy". I think could be a symptom of some of Patsy's issues.

    Cach, that was some theory presented on that site, wasn't it? ITA about something being off with the Ramseys overall, in general. I think Patsy did it, but I also think there was a lot more to that happy Christian family facade.

  45. #145
    cachluv Guest
    I don't know that she did it. I think she knew more. I think they all knew more, plus the bungles the cops made on top of it all....

  46. #146
    Mrs. Watson Guest
    I think the cops effed it up from the beginning, as well.

    I don't want to say I don't believe the DNA results, but I will say, I'm not entirely confident they were analyzed properly and preserved properly, given all the other cluster fucks the cops orchestrated in this case.

  47. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by geekygirl View Post
    JB could have been experiencing recurrent bladder infections due to her bedwetting. But recurrent bladder infections can also be a sign of child abuse. The doctor could have checked out her vagina, looking for any tears and such, which obviously would be a sign of sexual abuse.
    I never even thought of the bedwetting causing a rash/infection down there. Good point. I was just thinking of why the doc was looking down there at a normal checkup, now I understand why he knew.

    JonBenet went to the doctor a lot for a child her age who was "healthy". I think could be a symptom of some of Patsy's issues.
    Agreed. I'm torn between Patsy either having some sort of munchausen's by proxy(which I hate to think of, but still), or just very overly worried.

    "Death doesn't really worry me that much, I'm not frightened about it... I just don't want to be there when it happens."

  48. #148
    Hag1 Guest

    photo of John Ramsey at Patsy's funeral
    Is he smiling?

  49. #149
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hag1 View Post

    photo of John Ramsey at Patsy's funeral
    Is he smiling?
    God, poor man, he looks so old. I don't think he is smiling, like "Ding, Dong, The Witch is Dead," I think he is smiling from squinting into the sun. Also, my Dad smiled at my Mom's Memorial when people he hadn't seen for years showed up and came up to him to give their condolences.
    Any day above ground is a good day.

  50. #150
    cherryghost Guest
    He could be greeting a friend, remembering or smiling through tears.
    I know people smile at funerals and use facial expressions.
    Nothing sinister in that!
    Last edited by cherryghost; 04-22-2008 at 04:45 PM.

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