low blow your name fits you not only was that in bad tast, but it was disrespectful to that poor girl who died so horribly.
low blow your name fits you not only was that in bad tast, but it was disrespectful to that poor girl who died so horribly.
Renowned Death Hag
This guy pretty much tears that book to shreads...chapter by chapter...Originally Posted by eca1094
This is the book I was talking about.
In 1946, Elizabeth Short traveled to Hollywood to become famous and see her name up in lights. Instead, the dark-haired beauty became immortalized in the headlines as the "Black Dahlia" when her nude and bisected body was discovered in the weeds of a vacant lot. Despite the efforts of more than four hundred police officers and homicide investigators, the heinous crime was never solved. Now, after endless speculation and false claims, bestselling author Donald H. Wolfe discovers startling new evidenceā??buried in the files of the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office for more than half a century.
With the aid of archival photos, news clippings, and investigative reports, Wolfe documents the riveting untold story that names the brutal murdererā??the notorious Mafia leader, Benjamin "Bugsy" Siegelā??and the motiveā??an unwanted pregnancy resulting from Short's involvement with the most powerful figure in Los Angeles, Norman Chandler. But Wolfe goes even further to unravel the large-scale cover-up behind the case. Wolfe's extensive research, based on the evidence he discovered in the recently opened LADA files, makes The Black Dahlia Files the authoritative work on the murder that has drawn endless scrutiny but remained unsolvedā??until now
http://lmharnisch.blogspot.com/2006/...olfe-book.html
I have to admit that I never picked it up after following this blog. I DID read Hodol and Gilmore's books though. Hodol made some excellent points and his dad was definately "interesting", but I don't think he killed Beth. I waver on Gilmore...
Renowned Death Hag
I always kind of got the impression that she didn't really believe he did it, but had to attach a "theory" to get it published. I could be wrong, but she doesn't mention the Welles connection on her website.
Guest
it was force fed.
he couldn't have, he was out playing golf lol
Guest
THe torture that she went through for those few days he/she had her confined, is just to terrible to comprehend. I think that is probably the most humiliating thing you can do to another person, making them eat poo. Then cutting her face while she was still alive (the police thinking that was the fatal cut). The person(s) responsible were not doubt crazy, sick and evil.
I tend to believe the policeman who wrote the book stating his dad was the murderer. I'm sorry his name and his father's name escape me right now. I know the son's first name is Steve. I just watched a story about the case the other day and a lot of what the excop/son says adds up.
Guest
Its weird I always wonder how it went down..ya know like was this a john...was this an ordinary looking guy she knew...how did she end up alone with him and why did he do such awful thing to her...was it personal?? Was he just experimenting? I never understood he had made her eat her own poo...I just cringe to think what she went through before she died....Like I said beofre my dad has an old copy of look magazine with a picture of her after she won a beauty pagent and its says something along the lines in the caption Beth Short in a one piece bathing suit......
he probably just told her to eat it. i am sure i would have if i thought iwould live if i did what he said. unfortunately, she didin't.Well obviously. But I mean - how??? The question begs to be answered. Did the sicko have her use utensils or did he (assuming it's a dude) place the exhaustpipe to her mouth, so to speak?
Lisamarie,
Beth wasnt a prostitute. She dated people so she could "network" and get some food. It wasnt uncommon for girls who wanted to get into the business to do.
but thats what Im wondering was it one of these guys she was picked up for a date or was it someone she had known.....the entire thing is weird....I mean I wonder how she ended up alone with him
I just found Severed for Ā£3 in a Soho bookshop and have gotten halfway through it since last night.. a very gripping book. You do get areal sense on just how sad her life was and it makes you veiw the entire crime and aftermath differently.
This is a myth. There was fecal material in her stomach due to digestion and then being sawed in two kind of scrambled things. I would think that someone force fed shit would vomit (voluntarily or involuntarily). I can't see it reaching the stomach.
Besides, how could they have known whose poo it was? There was no dna testing.
Renowned Death Hag
Elizabeth Short remembered, January 15, 1947
by Larry Harnisch
Today is the anniversary of the killing of Elizabeth Short, whose body was found in the 3800 block of South Norton Avenue in 1947. I always do two things in her honor: trim my roses and make a donation to Heading Home (formerly Shelter Inc.), which helps homeless and abused women in the Medford, Mass., area. Here's a CBS radio show on the crime called "Somebody Knows." [This link which is the same link as the first line in this post goes to today's LA Times where there's a very interesting video montage of Ms. Short's Life... and death. -- geeky]
About Larry Harnisch: The leading Black Dahlia expert and a collaborator in the 1947project, Harnisch has been a copy editor at The Times since 1988. He has appeared on many TV shows discussing the Dahlia case, notably "James Ellroy's Feast of Death."
Last edited by geekygirl; 01-15-2009 at 11:33 AM.
Any day above ground is a good day.
Administrator
Everyone has their own favorite book on the case. As I've already stated on this thread, mine is Severed by John Gilmore. Taken off the pages of Severed by yours truly (in some cases paraphrased), the following are observations of Elizabeth Short's autopsy conducted by Coroner Victor Cefalu and Chief Surgeon Frederick Newbarr, LA County Morgue, beginning with page 119. (Note: I did not include every scratch and bruise and the condition of her organs, except the lungs.)
1. She was lying on the table, head slightly to one side, her mouth gaping wide open with the cuts made by the killer, exposing her teeth. The body was severed. The lower section
angled up at the hips--somehow locked in a 45 degree angle to the upper body portion. The coronor believed Elizabeth had been in a semiirecumbant position at the time of death.
2. The coroner had trouble taking body temp because Elizabeth's rectum and vagina were blocked. The chief surgeon, Frederick Newbarr was called in. Newbarr inserted a circular clamp into Elizbeth's rectum and pulled out pieces of epidermal and muscular fiber (believed to have been gorged out of her left thigh). Newbarr removed a piece of skin with fat and subcutaneous tissue from her vagina. Even with these combined pieces of flesh there was more flesh missing from the gorged thigh that could not be accounted far. (I wonder if he ate it. Ew, I'm going to barf.)
3. She had multiple lacerations in the mid forehead, right forehead, and at the top of the head in the midline. Multiple tiny abrasions , linear in shape, on the right face and forehead. Two small lacerations on each side of the nose near the bridge. Deep laceration in the face three inches long which extends laterally from the right cornor of her mouth. The surrounding tissue is ecchymotic and bluish purple in color.
4. The teeth were in advance decay.
5. There were two linear abraisions in the left anterior of the neck. The larynex and pharynx are intact.
6. There was no obstruction in Elizabeth's mouth or larynogotracheal passage, not even coagulation, and he ruled out that she has suffocated or strangled on her own blood.
7. There was an irregular laceration with superficial loss in the skin of her right breast.
8. Newbarr noted the stomach "was filled with greenish brown granular material, mostly fecal matter and other particles." (The stomach contents were not scrambled when she was sawed in half, as someone has stated above. So it is no myth that Elizabeth was forced to eat shit--whether it was her shit or the killer's or animal is not known.)
9. There is an abraision that extends through the lower half of the labia minora and margin shows some bluish discoloration. But it was impossible to tell if she was raped because traces of spermatozos are negative, and she did not have fully developed gentals--the area is shallow indicating that she did not have a completed vaginal canal. There might have been the possibility of spermatozos traces from the laceration of the area below the navel down to the pubic area, if the attacker had some sexual usage of that area of the body. It would have been impossible for him to have inserted his penis into her vagina. But then, it was noted that the killer washed the body completely, removing all traces of semen or blood.
10. All of Elizabeth's organs were normal and healthy, except the right lung which was
"somewhat adherent due to fairly firm plueral adhesions."
11. Cause of death: hemorrahage and shock due to concussion of the brain from blows to the head, and lacerations of the face.
Last edited by cindyt; 01-15-2009 at 03:22 PM.
I'm not really sure how the fact that there was "fecal material" in her stomach means that she was forced to eat shit. She would have vomited. There is no way she could have eaten enough shit to be for her stomach to be "filled with fecal material". Please explain to me how this fairly insignificant statement proves that she was forced to eat shit. Not that it would surprise me that considering everything else that was done to her, I'm just wondering if this is the only thing people are going by when they say this.
From Larry Harnisch's website:
Myth: She was forced to eat feces.
Fact: The fecal material found in her stomach was from the natural digestion of food and a result of her being cut in half, according to doctors and investigators I have interviewed.
Origin: Still another claim from "Severed," attributed to a nonexistent LAPD detective.
Administrator
If she didn't eat it, how did it get there? The body was sawed in half at the waist and the stomach is much higher up than that, so the sawing could not have ruptured the organs in such a way that shit got into her stomach. Maybe she did vomit, but remember the killer completely washed her body.
Administrator
I have a complete copy of the transcript of the shorthand notes taken at the Coroner's inquest held on 1/22/47, certified by Ben H. Brown, Coroner.
Below is the section of that document noting the testimony of Frederick D. Newbarr--
Q (by the Coroner): Please state your name.
A Frederick D. Newbarr.
Q What is your occupation?
A Physician and surgeon.
Q And you are the autopsy surgeon for the coroner?
A Yes, sir, chief autopsy surgeon, Los Angeles County.
Q Did you perform an autopsy on the body of Elizabeth Short over whom we are holding the present inquest?
A Yes, sir.
Q When did you perform the autopsy?
A January 16, 1947 at 10:30 a.m.
Q From your examination of the body would you be able to form any opinion as to the date of the death as to whether it was on the 15th or prior to the 15th?
A It was my opinion that the appearance of the body was such that the death occurred not more than 24 hours previous to the 15th, probably less.
Q So that the death would have occurred either on the 14th or 15th?
A Yes, sir.
Q Will you please state to the jury either briefly or in full as you like, the result of your autopsy findings, please?
A The immediate cause of the death was hemorrhage and shock due to concussion of the brain and lacerations of the face. The body is that of a female about 15 to 20 years of age, measuring 5'5" in height and weighing 115 pounds. There are multiple lacerations in the midforehead, in the right forehead, and at the top of the head in the midline. There are multiple tiny abrasions, linear in shape on the right face and forehead. There are two small lacerations, 1/4" in length, on each side of the nose near the bridge. There is a deep laceration in the face 3" long which extends laterally from the right corner of the mouth. The surrounding tissues are ecchymotic and bluish purple in color. There is a deep laceration 2 1/2" long extending laterally from the left corner of the mouth. The surrounding tissues are bluish purple in color. There are five linear lacerations in the right upper lip which extend into the soft tissues for a distance of 1/8". The teeth are in a state of advanced decay. The two upper central incisors are loose and one lower incisor is loose. The rest of the teeth show cavities. Upon reflecting the scalp, there is ecchymosis in the right and *unreadable* frontal area. There are localized areas of *unreadable* hemorrhage on the right side and small *unreadable* areas in the corpus callosum. No fracture of the skull is visible. There is a depressed ridge on both sides and in the exterior portion of the neck. It is light brown in color. There is an abrasion irregular in outline in the skin of the neck in the anterior midline. There are two linear abrasions in the left anterior neck. There are two depressed ridges in the posterior neck, pale brown in color. The lower ridge has an abrasion in the skin at each extremity. The pharynx and larynx are intact. There is no evidence of trauma to the hyoid bone, thyroid or *unreadable* cartilages or tracheal rings. There is a small area of ecchymosis in the soft tissues of the right neck at the level of the upper tracheal rings. There is no obstruction in the larynx/tracheal passage. There is an irregular laceration with superficial loss in the skin of the right breast. The tissue loss is more or less sqare in outline and measures 3 1/2" transversely and 2 1/2" longitudinally; extending toward the midline from this irregular laceration are several superficial lacerations in the skin. There is an elliptical opening in the skin located 3/4" to the left of the left nipple. The opening measures 2 3/4" in a transverse direction and 1 1/4" in a longitudinal direction in its midportion. The margins of these wounds show no appreciable discoloration.
Q Doctor, I don't believe it will be necessary for you to read all of this. It is rather long and I don't think we need to read all of it here. The essential findings with regard to the cause of death have already been expressed; and that is the concussion of the brain and the lacerations of the face. The portion of your findings with regard to the chest, would you read that on the second page there, the organs of the chest, were they in a normal position.
A The left lung is pink in color and well serated. The right lung is somewhat adherant due to fairly firm pleural adhesions. The lung is pink in color and serated. There is calcified thickening of the 9th rib on the right side in the scapu8lar line. The heart shows no gross pathology.
Q Then the next paragraph with regard to the severing of the body?
A The trunk is completely severed by an incision which is almost straight through the abdomen severing the intestine at the duodenum and through the soft tissues of the abdomen passing through the intervertebral disk between the 2nd and 3rd lumbar vertebra. There is very little ecchymosis along the tract of the incision. There is a gaping laceration 4 1/2" which extends longitudinally from the umbilicus to the suprapubic area. On both sides of the laceration there a multiple superficial lacerations. There are multiple criss cross lacerations in the suprapubic area which extend through the skin and soft tissues. No ecchymosis is seen.
Q Was there any evidence of sexual assault? You might read the last paragraph, and I believe that covers it, on the next page.
A The stomach was filled with greenish brown granular material, mostly feces and other particles which could not be identified. All smears for spermatazoa are negative.
Q Is there anything else which would contribute to the medical cause of death?
A No, sir, I don't think so.
Q Your finding is that the real cause of death was hemorrhage and shock due to blows on the head?
A Blows on the head and lacerations to the face.
OK--so my question would be directed to medical professionals who might know (lisa? are you there? would LOVE for you to weigh in on this!).
As there was fecal material in the stomach, my question is, would or could digested food in the stomach be mistaken for fecal material? I mean, digested food is one thing, but for fecal material to be present in the stomach (not the intestines, but the stomach)--wouldn't that mean that she had indeed ingested fecal material? These wounds (the cutting in half, etc.) sound as if they were inflicted with a high degree of specificity vs. someone who just cut haphazardly, which, it seems, would negate the idea of things being "mixed up" in her body cavity (i.e., intestinal contents being transferred to the stomach)...so my guess as such would be that ES was indeed force-fed feces (which given the pure and obvious hatred around this crime would not surprise me at all). Whew. This case is fascinating, no?
Administrator
Renowned Death Hag
I really respect this guy and the knowledge he has on the case. He doesn't really "accept" Gilmore's version (which I am on the fence about). However his website is interesting and he completely demolishes Wolfe's book about the mafia ties to the Dahlia. I wish he'd put his book out already. I don't know if I completely believe HIS theory either (for all you Gilmore fans out there). I think Severed is a worthwile read (and purchase), but I have to admit there are some issues I have with it
Anyway here is a link to Larry's blog. It takes a little time to navigate, but is worth it. There is also a link to his website there.
http://lmharnisch.blogspot.com/2006/...olfe-book.html
Also, I'm glad someone "remembered" Elizabeth today. I would have forgotten completely about it if this thread hadn't been at the top. Poor sad girl. Once my age progressed over 22 years (her age at death) I started looking at the whole case differently. Where I used to say, "I would never drift like that"; I now say, "I wish I could have been there to help you."
Last edited by Dulcinea; 01-15-2009 at 08:13 PM.
Larry Harnisch has not only knocked down the other Black Dahlia theories, but he has carefully developed his own, plausable idea about the killer and his motive.
Go here to tread about it: http://www.lmharnisch.com/home.html
Renowned Death Hag
I only "remembered" because I read Larry's blog almost every day. It is steeped in LA history, especially Hollywood in its heyday, and I really enjoy what he has to say. I was born here in LA and My parents came here in the 40's and I was born here in LA, so I have a lot of history in this city. I am also totally into "Old Hollywood," as my Grandma was a VIP nurse working out of the then-called Caedars of Lebanon (now Cedars-Sinai) hospital, and worked for quite a few famous folks. My mother is famous in her own right, but to protect me and my family's anonymity (especially since I have posted very honest things about my Mom and family in general), I don't feel at liberty to divulge who she was.
Interstingly enough, after I married my husband, I learned that a member of his family was involved heavily with the Black Dahlia case. It's so weird because on different levels I feel like I know Elizabeth Short, or at the very least that she was an aquaintance in a former life.
Any day above ground is a good day.
Renowned Death Hag
Shouldn't this post on ELIZABETH SHORT actually be listed under
'OTHER DEATHS IN THE NEWS' ?
SHORT was not an actress.
KELT' HOME FOR WAYWARD YOUTH-
Helping Young Men To Turn Around For Over Twenty Years !
Administrator
On this point we are in agreement, lol.
Administrator
Geekygirl, can you tell me how the member of your husband's family was involved with the Black Dahlia case? Were they involved in the police investigation, or did they somehow know Beth Short?
Sorry - not trying to get you to divulge anything personal you're not comfortable with, I've just been obsessed with this case for ages, and would love to know any info you can share!
Her teeth were in advanced decay?
I don't remember this fact, maybe I just glossed over it in my reading. Pictures of her don't show that, but for having gone down in history as a beautiful woman, advanced decay is not a pretty sight.
On to the fecal material. The only time I have observed or heard of fecal material in the stomach was from a bowel perforation or the perforation of another hollow viscus. Peritonitis usually results and the patient, without medical intervention, will surely die.
Now, that being said, I see no evidence of this in Elizabeth Short, so my conclusion as to the fecal material in her stomach would be that in all liklihood came from her injesting it somehow.
Good god, like she didnt suffer enough... she had to eat shit... literally?! YUCK!!!!
I know.
I forgot to metion, there are obscure homicides out there in which this has indeed happened so I see no reason as to why it would not be the case with Elizabeth Short.
Administrator
Exactly. I can't remember what cases but I have read about victims being forced to eat feces.
You know I don't ever remember seeing a pic of her smiling with her teeth showing--I take that back, there is a pic of her showing her teeth and they do not look in advanced decay, but they may have gotten that way after this pic. Or it may have been her back teeth. I had always read they were bad. She may have brushed them and didn't have the money for a dentist. Some people are born with bad teeth. My baby sister always took good care of her teeth and went to the dentist, from the time she was a kid, but her teeth were just horrible and today she wears a plate.
Last edited by cindyt; 01-16-2009 at 01:31 PM.
Administrator
This is a diagram of the abdominal organs.
The process of digesting food is accomplished by many organs in the body. Food is pushed by the esophagus into the stomach. The stomach mixes the food and begins the breakdown of proteins. The stomach propels the food then into the small intestine. The small intestine further digests food and begins the absorption of nutrients. Secretions from the pancreas in the small intestine help neutralize the acid in the intestine to provide a proper environment for the enzymes to function. Bile from the gallbladder and liver emulsify fat and enhance the absorption of fatty acids. The large intestine temporarily stores and concentrates the remainder until it is passed out as waste from the body.
This is a link that shows what the severed parts looked like http://www.starthrillerbrandonlee.co...ahliapics.html
"[T]he trunk is completely severed by an incision which is almost straight through the abdomen, severing the intestine at the duodenum and through the soft tissues of the abdomen passing through the intervertbrat disk between the second and third lumbar vertebrate." Severed by John Gilmore.
Duodenum: the first short section of the small intestine immediately beyond the stomach.
The key here is that the stomach propels food into the duodenum. I am no authority on the digestive system, but it seems to me that something would have to propel food back into the stomach unless the stomach was perforated and it was not.
Thanks lisa! As for the teeth, I've read in a couple of books on the subject that Beth actually plugged the holes in her teeth with candle wax because she couldn't afford any dental work whatsoever...which makes this whole thing all that much sadder.
Renowned Death Hag
This person was a Detective for LAPD assigned to the BD case.
Any day above ground is a good day.
I've read this also.Thanks lisa! As for the teeth, I've read in a couple of books on the subject that Beth actually plugged the holes in her teeth with candle wax because she couldn't afford any dental work whatsoever...which makes this whole thing all that much sadder.
Administrator
Okay, okay. I still don't see how she could have kept enough shit down for her stomach to be "filled with fecal material" as stated in the report. I would not be at all surprised that she was forced to do this, it just seems that she would gag and empty the contents of her stomach if she ate shit.
Just imagine who hard it would be not to puke if someone was forcing you to eat feces. Even under threat of extreme violence I wouldn't be able to keep from vomiting.
The Dahlia episode of Cold Case Files is on A&E right now. Ugh, Steve Hodel is on it. Now, HE is full of shit! lol
Last edited by Lout_Rampage; 01-16-2009 at 03:26 PM.
Administrator
[quote=Lout_Rampage;622373]Okay, okay. I still don't see how she could have kept enough shit down for her stomach to be "filled with fecal material" as stated in the report. I would not be at all surprised that she was forced to do this, it just seems that she would gag and empty the contents of her stomach if she ate shit.
Just imagine who hard it would be not to puke if someone was forcing you to eat feces. Even under threat of extreme violence I wouldn't be able to keep from vomiting.
The Dahlia episode of Cold Case Files is on A&E right now. Ugh, Steve Hodel is on it. Now, HE is full of shit! lol[/quote]
Ahhh, we agree again. Lmao.
I..just..finished..reading..this..Taggerez....and..this..surgeon..seems..to
be..the..most..likely..suspect..thus..far......I..never..bought..it..was..a.
mob..hit.....It..had..to..involve..someone..with..a..comfort..and..skill
of..a..knife...and..mental..issues.....Had..no..one..but..this..author
uncovered..the..coincidental..meetings..between..all..these..people?
100% agreement. Hodel is full of shit...well, not literally--you know what I mean.
I saw it earlier and thought the same thing!100% agreement. Hodel is full of shit...well, not literally--you know what I mean.
Renowned Death Hag
I feel he is very credible and enjoy his blog, too! I haven't been there in a while though (*shame*). I really like the 1947 Project blog as well.
Renowned Death Hag
I agree that he has missed the mark on the Dahlia. The pictures he had are NOT her, BUT I do believe that some of the crimes he linked to the Dahlia were by the same person (though not his father). I find it kind of sad actually, because he seems like a good and reliable detective, but this will be what he is remember for and he was off the mark. I read his book and found it facinating (if false). I think the most valuble thing in it was the accounts of the other female murders that took place around the same time, but were never solved.
Administrator
Renowned Death Hag
Yeah it seems likely. It didn't look like a rage killing, but more along the lines of someone who was perfecting their "style". It seems to me that if she was killed out of rage or revenge there would have been more sensless mutilation. I feel her wounds are more methodical and point to someone who kills for thrill and not out of passion.
That being said it, that doesn't rule out someone she knew. After all she really had no close associations, so it is likely she had run across her killer at some point before the murder and possibly may have been seen associating with him (I do not believe it was a woman).
Last edited by Dulcinea; 01-17-2009 at 12:15 PM.
Can you shed some insight into what this means Cindy?
Just curious.
Last edited by octobersky; 01-18-2009 at 06:20 AM.
Glad you asked, I was wondering the same thing! Glad to see you back!
Eat, shit and then you die?
Eats, shoots and leaves?
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