IIRC didn't they inject those who didn't want to drink?
Yeah it's become widely regarded as mass murder, many of those unwilling to take the mixture were held at gunpoint or injected with it. A few people spoke up against the whole idea and were hushed, most of the children didn't have a choice.
There were only around 200 bodies autopsied too, so no one will ever really know how most died.
I reckon there's a mix up somewhere with Jones' death. They say it was suicide but I've a feeling a few of the inner circle killed each other. The autopsy actually stated "suicide can't be ruled out" (if I recall correctly) so they definitely weren't sure what occurred!
Another case where we will never know the full/true story!
Seems like I read somewhere years ago that one of his guys shot Jones in the back of the head as it was all winding down - don't know where that info came from.
A faulty hypothesis forming:
A German scientist using Iranian physics and French mathematics.
(It's surprising to me that some of the conspiracy sites out there still call the drink Kool-Aid. If I wanted people to buy my spill I would at least get the main facts right. Sheesh.)
On November 18, 1978, 913 people died in Jonestown, a small compound carved out of the jungles of Guyana, a small country on the northeast coast of South America. The media at the time reported that it was a fanatical group of followers of the Rev. Jim Jones, lead to the jungles of South America to get away from the oppression of life here in America. They also reported that his followers willingly followed their leader into the great beyond by sipping on some cyanide cocktails, flavored with purple Kool-Aid. In fact, the notion of a mass suicide at Jonestown has been repeated so many times that it is accepted as fact, and the association is so strong that when most people hear "Jonestown," the first thing which pops in their head is "Kool-Aid." This association is false. http://nstarzone.com/JONESTOWN.html
Last edited by cindyt; 01-08-2016 at 07:18 PM.
I don't believe it was mass suicide at all. From the shows I have watched on it, it was only the fanatical people who really thought everything should come to an end. I believe the majority of the people there would have left to come back to the US if given the option. There were the few brave people who actually risked their lives to attempt to escape, but there was so much security and paranoia there that I am certain there were many many more people who were just too afraid to say anything to be able to leave. I mean look what they did at the few who did get to leave, they sent people to the airstrip to shoot them. They had claimed people were free to leave, yet people had to sneak out, others had to leave their children. The whole thing is just so horrible.
I always get the douche chills when I hear Jim Jones speaking on that recording and that terrible music is playing in the background.
As far as I know, there just wasn't enough time to autopsy each body, what with the heat and that they had already been laid out there for some time. A Guyanese doctor performed autopsies on the spot and the same bodies were sent to the U.S. to be autopsied again by an American pathologist.
However, I have JUST now read, the Guyanese doctor examined "over 100 bodies during a 32 hour period and found that the adults had all been injected with cyanide in places they could not reach, such as between the shoulder blades, and that many of them had also been shot."
It seems to be increasingly difficult to find two matching statements!! So annoying!! Lol
edit: I've just found another source stating only 7 autopsies!
The mind boggles.... and my research skills are clearly terrible!
Last edited by Torious; 01-09-2016 at 08:46 AM.
I was born in Guyana and was actually 8 months old, living about 80 miles away in Georgetown when this tragedy occurred.
Flavor Aid was a popular, cheap knock off sold in Guyana. My grandmother told me many stories about Jonestown. One of them being that there were large drums of Flavor Aid found around the compound.
Kool Aid will forever be associated with Jonestown it seems.
I just look at people when they say "don't drink the Kool Aid" and then mention it was probably Flavor Aid as matter of factly as I can lol.
It doesn't seem funny how many innocent (and predominantly black) people were murdered in cold blood and left to rot in the tropical heat.
Last edited by Melisscious; 01-10-2016 at 01:44 AM.
The fact is they did indeed have Kool-Aid on the compound as well Flavor Aid. That can't be disputed. Whether or not Kool-Aid was used in addition to Flavor Aid for the toxic cocktail is another question.
Melisscious - I bet you've heard some interesting things!
Whether it was or not, whatever they used, there were huge trunks of the stuff. Jones is seen pointing it out while doing a tour of Jonestown in a video. He states Kool-Aid at the time but I don't know if you can see it?
I dont think we have Kool-Aid OR Flavor Aid in the UK, I'd not even heard of it until I started researching Jonestown! Is it the stuff with the big red walking jug as advertisement?
I'd say I feel bad for either company with all the negative attention it brought them, but they say "any press is good press!"
I've never seen this picture before but it shows someone who was given the task to help clean up the bodies and put them in body bags.
"Here's your rubber gloves, go clean up".
I just can't imagine. And the heat. Where is his mask.....yikes.
the death tape is still fascinating
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkookcrAnSE
Out of all the cults I have read about this one haunts me the most and gives me chills everytime. Especially listening to the death tape. Whether it be Flavor Aid or Kool Aid, a lot of people died when they shouldn't have, I feel it was murder, he wouldn't let them leave and brainwashed them so much they felt that there was danger coming their way because he said so.
Now that I've read that many of the bodies were actually posed with their arms around each other (dying from ANYTHING would tend to make them lose their grip even if they WERE doing group hugs at that moment) I wonder if the same individuals made sure most were face-down, too, to impede attempts at identification.
Things that make one hope there IS a hell (even if I end up there myself, it WOULD give me consolation to see JJ and his henchmen in the lowest level.)
Scary as hell ! I wonder what David Miscavige has in store for his people if the shit ever hits the fan. He's right up there with JJ, a complete lunatic.
Today you could be standing next to someone who is trying their best not to fall apart. So whatever you do today, do it with kindness.
Vince Gilligan, creator of Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul is doing a project on Jonestown on HBO. I will definitely order this channel, just about everything Gilligan does is quality.
http://deadline.com/2016/09/vince-gi...er-1201816148/
By my troth, I care not; a man can die but once; we owe God a death.... He that dies this year is quit for the next.
--William Shakespeare!
[QUOTE=Linnie;1532723]Now that I've read that many of the bodies were actually posed with their arms around each other (dying from ANYTHING would tend to make them lose their grip even if they WERE doing group hugs at that moment) I wonder if the same individuals made sure most were face-down, too, to impede attempts at identification.
Things that make one hope there IS a hell (even if I end up there myself, it WOULD give me consolation to see JJ and his henchmen in the lowest level.)[/
WhereDidYouReadThat? Dont know why it wouldnt let me use space bar...sorry
And Dude where did you find that photo? Getty Images?
I told my lawyer he's better step it up or we would both end up on an episode of "SNAPPED"
I remember watching this on the news. I was only 9 and it horrified me. Powers Boothe will forever be Jim Jones to me. He looked just like him.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
racial breakdown of Jonestown
Yes, I do too.
"Mother, mother mother...." Ugh!
I saw an interesting picture recently of Jones that supposedly shows the bullet hole from the shot that killed him. I didn't look really closely, so I can't say that I actually saw it, but in the comment section of whatever it was, no one disputed it.
I don't think he planned to kill himself, to be honest.
Anyway, in the tape, there's that woman who's trying to stop this... this. I'm thinking her name is Linda, but I'm probably wrong. She talks about alternative actions they could take, she mentions somewhere they could go instead of just dying, and says something about planes that could take them. (Apologies this is so general; I don't want to misquote her, though, and it's been a minute since I've listened.)
She makes a damn good point, and I'm sure a lot of people agreed with her, although nobody said a word.
Finally, Jones, after politely arguing his point, pretty much tells her to STFU and go with the program which, apparently, is exactly what she did.
People talk about the charisma of Adolph Hitler (true dat) and of Manson (which I argue; how hard is it to give a buncha hippies acid and convince them you're Jesus Christ?) But few talk about Jim Jones' obvious hold he had on these people, and I don't know why because I find it fascinating.
I couldn't believe the audio tape was online, and I listened to it over and over, just in awe that I was hearing the last thing those people heard before they died what was by all accounts an horrific death. And maybe I can see over 900 folks choosing to die for what they believed in (maybe.) But for the life of me, I cannot see them killing their children first!
So many custody disputes now end very badly, which children being killed for the sole purpose of hurting the other spouse. I don't understand those, either. But the killers in those cases are going through a mental nightmare, and not in the frame of mind best suited to deal with losing the children they're used to seeing every single day (doesn't make it right, but still.) And these parents weren't losing their kids. I mean, there was nothing coming between them and their kids except the unlikely event of one's death (which of course came to pass.)
I just know that, if it were me, no matter what crazy-ass cult I wound up in, something would snap inside me the moment I found myself holding my child's mouth open as he/she looked up, trusting, into my face. No way, nope nope nope. But this lot... I didn't hear a peep from a like-minded parent. What the hell? I suppose brainwashing is that powerful.
I hope I never find out.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul! (Invictus)
(And Timothy McVeigh's last words...)
Her name was Christine Miller and she did seem to be the only voice of reason that day. She was brave for trying considering the group think and potential punishment she was up against. I agree, there is nothing in this world that could make me kill my child but as I have studied this case and similar cult-like manipulations of people then I see how it happened. By the time this all came about these people were isolated, malnourished, systematically intimidated, and terrorized. They all started out , in my opinion, as vulnerable people to be led down the rabbit hole by someone as manipulative and corrupt as Jones. He knew how to pick his victims well like any good predator. Some were protestants looking for a new church which brings open minds into a new construct that has no real rules or guidance. Then he moved those people to California....need I say more? That was a perfect breeding ground for what we now refer to as SJW Social Justice Warriors ....very liberal people who think they are doing the right thing morally but fail to have much common sense and zero sense of real danger. Next, throw in the disenfranchised drug addicts and black people and gain access to more children. Mix this group together in the 1970's turbulence and chaotic social and political climate and BINGO! It was the perfect storm for a narcissistic sociopath like Jones. It was destined to fall apart but sadly, he had moved them in to the isolated jungle in a far away country with little to no communications with the rest of the world. They became sheep and puppets for a mad man and paid with their lives for their mistake. I do think Jones planned on killing himself and everyone else too. He was on heavy drugs which clouded his judgement but he also knew the gig was up.....and he didnt want to go to jail. His final and ultimate narcissistic act was to end the lives of all his followers and then himself. Powerful in his view and a perfect ending to his creation that had run its course and had no future. The US Congressman Leo Ryan coming down and him assassinating him meant prison and the end of Jonestown which was already done plus all the other allegations against him for fraud etc back in the US. The cyanid was ordered months in advance with a plan for it
Dude- thanks for letting me know about the photo. Post more if you can find anything "new"
I told my lawyer he's better step it up or we would both end up on an episode of "SNAPPED"
My skin is actually crawling just reading the lines.
I also think that he didn't expect to die, maybe he was feeling immortal from all the drugs that he was consuming at the time (didn't his own men perform the coupe de grace on him?) he must have told them to shoot him regardless on if he came to his senses and tried to stop it.
It's really no surprise that the Government steps in when some of these radical religious groups form.
I Think they were just so brainwashed they thought it was the best thing. There was one woman who tried to escape with her son because she realized it was not right. Her husband was a security person there and he figured out her plan but kind of let her go. Then there was Vern Gosney (sp?) who also wanted to get his child out of there but had to make the decision to leave him. I don't think he knew what was going to hapen though, , he got to the plane and was shot but lived. I think he thought he might be able to go back and save him if he could just get out. I've posted it before but he really breaks my heart/ He was in an interracial relationship and thought he had really found something to believe in. He seems like a good person and he lost everything just trying to find something to believe in where people of all cultures could live together, etc... I also felt terrible for the father of Jones step daughter. This whole thing was such a senseless tragedy headed up by a madman. I don't think Ill ever understand it.
I don't know a ton about this case and haven't watched a lot about it, but what was Jones deal? I know he says that last day that they would be coming for them since he set the plan to kill the senator in motion but was he just on a major power trip or what was his deal? How does someone get that crazy and how do that many people go along with that kind of crazy without realizing how crazy it is?
Last edited by atomicbettie; 03-28-2017 at 03:52 AM.
I imagine to a bunch of vulnerable poor people Jonestown was paradise and they were given those things (roof over their head, food, bed, community) freely where elsewhere it was their life's struggle to get. Jim Jones preyed upon desperate people and up to the final moments they probably realized there was no point in fighting since they were executing people or injecting them with the cyanide that refused. I can only imagine what was going through those individuals heads during that ceremony seeing everyone dying around them.
Atomic Betty- I may have answered most of your questions in my post above yours.
Dude~ Jim Jones was smart enough to know he wouldnt do well in prison. He wanted to die. The gig was up. He fled the USA overnight because he was being exposed and had families of his followers on his trail. They are the ones who brought the Congressman and press down to Jonestown. Also, dont forget a big part of that was the Stoen child he had kidnapped. He was also involved with government housing and SS fraud and he was heavily involved with the democrat politicians who were a part of all that plus election fraud. There was serious corruption going on. Some of those democrats were taken down and some are still in power to this day, which is scary. I think "only in California" could all be forgiven so easily. But, anyway....such an interesting if not insane part of history
It is thought by many people who studied the peoples temple/jonestown and even a few that survived it that Jim Jones was shot by Annie Moore, who was also the only other person to die from a gun shot (she was found in Jones's cabin with a suicide note) in Jonestown ....not counting the chimp, of course. The other gunshot deaths happened at the air strip. I will link to an article written by Annie's sister Rebecca who hosts the most comprehensive web site regarding Jim Jones and the peoples temple.
Annie was the nurse who was in charge of , among other things in the inner circle, the dosing of Jim Jones with uppers and downers. Their other sister Carolyn bore a child sired by Jim Jones. They all died in Jonestown. Rebecca Moore can be sympathetic in her writings but also offer other emotions. It fascinating that she takes on creating this website which allows different voices and input from many other than her own and she contributes honest emotion on her unique and tragic situation of having TWO sisters closely intertwined with Jim Jones and his horrible legacy and their active part in it.
http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=34305
Last edited by baroque1; 03-30-2017 at 01:34 AM.
I told my lawyer he's better step it up or we would both end up on an episode of "SNAPPED"
Baroque1 - Thanks for that link. I had no idea it existed. I can't wait to read it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thanks baroque. That makes sense and I think describes Vern Gosney as well, so it definitely fits. What a damn shame this whole thing was, especially for those who just wanted a place where everyone would be accepted. Not to lessen those who were drug addicts or there for other reasons, but some people really wanted that utopian dream world where people could live together without prejudice and with peace, and it's sad that they thought they were going to get that and it all went so wrong. But I can see how they were manipulated and the with the things like starvation your mind can go way out of whack. I know some people were rational enough to realize what was happening was wrong, but still I can't find any profound words for the whole thing, it's just a damn shame.
As far as people killing their kids, that part actually doesn't shock me as much. If they are already in this crazy mindset I don't think it's a big leap to think they are doing their children a favor to take them out and move them on to the next level, these people were not thinking right, and probably somehow thought they were helping or protecting their children. It's crazy to a rational person, but I understand it in a way.
I haven't read all 18 pages here, so pardon me if this has already been mentioned... I just listened to the "death speech" before they drank the poison, and gotta tell ya, this man makes me sick to my stomach. Maybe we've evolved a lot as people since the late 70's, I'm having a very difficult time understanding how all these folks couldn't see through his BS. And its very evident Jones was high as a kite while he gave that last speech.
By my troth, I care not; a man can die but once; we owe God a death.... He that dies this year is quit for the next.
--William Shakespeare!
Mods, feel free to delete this if you feel it is out of line or too far off topic. Not picking on you either, just using this post. Yes, it is a little different but I do not see us as much different when we go to the polls to vote. We have a candidate lie to us year after year not how we must die but how others must die by the tens of thousands for some unknown reason to me. We suck it up and repeat it and tell ourselves that this is a great leader protecting us from these imaginary threats.
a new book on the subject - a must read for me
http://www.npr.org/2017/04/11/523348...in-demagoguery
Guinn says Jones, who founded Peoples Temple church, would take current events and exaggerate them to create a sense of fear and urgency.
By my troth, I care not; a man can die but once; we owe God a death.... He that dies this year is quit for the next.
--William Shakespeare!
Renowned Death Hag
Not to mention ramp it up so people think they are in immediate danger, the next to be victims, the next to be persecuted... "they are going after the WHOS, they're going to come for the WHATS next and if not next, after that."
Anyone else listen to Sword and Scale? I'm on their FB Group and someone asked which episode people thought was most disturbing and Jonestown was one of the number one answers, a lot of people saying they couldn't even listen to the whole thing. I must be crazy or callous or something because while it's disturbing, it's no where NEAR turn the show off disturbing. Even the pictures of all those dead people are some of the least disturbing, to me. I guess because most aren't gory, maybe, but even though some people might have objected and changed their mind at the end, I think some still had hope of how things were supposed to be and what the IDEA was, or something, so still kind of agreed. It was apparently very hard to get a good resistance going, you really never knew who to trust, it wasn't like a prisoner situation where you clearly knew who the guards were, etc... my God eventually you wouldn't know who to trust. That's what's so disturbing to me about it, I guess, is that once people realized it wasn't going to be what they thought, it was too late, and what do you do when you don't know if your neighbor will go with you or stab you in the back if you say you think something is wrong. If I had been one to realize it was going downhill before it did I probably would have killed myself before then. Those people who tried to escape (especially the ones through the woods, not even the note givers who got to attempt to leave on planes) are some damn brave people.
Renowned Death Hag
a review of Guinn's book
https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-r...-to-jonestown/
Sounds like a good book, thanks for the link cash! I read another review that was pretty good too, I think it gave it 7/10 stars. I'd post the link but my browser is being weird right now, but will post it if I find it later after I'm able to reboot everything.
A new book from Congressman Ryan's assistant
https://nypost.com/2018/11/10/inside...illed-the-air/
Loved the Sundance doc on it. Cannot believe it's been 40 years.
You robbed an international house of pancakes. How waffle-Harry T. Stone
Twitter: @rchamberlain87 Follow me if you want. Just play nice.
Only the good die young....