Originally Posted by NYSDeathhag
Thanks!
I have mixed feelings about the moved bodies theory. It is, to me, the most fascinating "unknown" about that night. The supporting evidence is the very sizable pool of blood outside the front door. How did that get there?
The only other person whose blood that could be would be Voytek, since he went out the front door, but that much blood would indicate that he sat there in the front doorway for a while before eventually making it out to the lawn.
freaky...
Administrator
Absolutely AWESOME!! Just finished the dvd...true genius!!! I could have watched for hours. More please!!!
Senior Death Hag
I've just ordered "The 6 Degrees of Helter Skelter" video myself. Hopefully, I'll get it this week. It sounds quite interesting.
Concerning the moving of the bodies, I'm having a hard time believing it. Once rigor mortis sets in, it's going to be difficult at best to "arrange" a body of dead weight to conform to the position you're wanting it in. And in reviewing the crime scene photos, the position of the bodies match with the type of struggle each victim was having with their killer. For instance, Tex Watson repeatedly kicked Jay in the face over and over and both of Jay's hands were in front of his face for protection. With Sharon, she was obviously trying to protect her baby and was having both arms held back probably by Susan Atkins while Tex Watson stabbed her.
However, it is rather curious as to why there was so much of Sharon's blood on the front porch. The logical assumption would be that since Susan left her footprints on the walkway that were in Sharon's blood, that she may possibly have left the stains on the porch during her struggle with Frykowski. This being said, it would seem to indicate that she was more involved with the stabbing of Sharon than she or Tex let on. After all, Tex states in his book that "he didn't know Sharon was pregnant." And who really believes his comment that he didn't know Sharon was pregnant?
Senior Death Hag
That is a weird one....whose blood was it?? I'm going to watch that DVD one more time tonight because there was just so much new info....
The other thing that just doesn't make sense is that NO ONE heard enough of what was happening to call the cops. The scene where Scott is pointing to the house from the "Falcon's Lair" blew my mind. It gave a great "snapshot" of the scale of the canyon and other homes in contrast to the Tate location. You cannot tell me that on a such a quiet night, the neigbors didn't hear enough to call the cops. I can understand the down in the canyon...but the neighbors just a few houses down?? Let alone Garrettson in the guest house.....
Having said all that....I really wish something or someone could have saved Sharon and her friends that night...what a nightmare.
Senior Death Hag
The forensics information shows that the pool of blood on the porch in question is, in fact, Sharon's. The blood trail is quite telling in the struggle that went on that night.
It is quite odd that numerous calls were made but the timeframes were so off you really could not get a sense as to the actual time the cries and gunshots were heard. This is why the time had to go off of the autopsy reports.
It is quite sad to think that a next door neighbor a few houses down would not have called the police upon hearing the gunshots. But on the flip side, if there had been a lot of parties going on in that area of the canyon on a regular basis, with the likelihood of drug use and selling of drugs, I guess it's not too surprising that the police were not summoned. What a tragedy.
Concerning William Garrettson, I have to agree with Doris Tate in all probability he was not in the guesthouse at the time the murders took place. It would support Pat Krenwinkel's comments that no one was in the guesthouse. Did he hear the commotion and get scared and went out back into the wooded area where he could not be seen? After all, he initially failed his lie detector test, wherein he stated he didn't see or hear anything. He stated he was simply nervous. It's hard to say what really happened. He certainly lost all credibility with me, though, when he believed this girl that was claiming to be Sharon and Roman's baby, Rosie Tate-Polanski, that the baby was actually saved and placed in a home where she could be safe from the Manson Family. He actually took up a relationship with her! Debra Tate summed this up pretty well, "Where do these people come from?"
Here's a picture of the blood on the front porch:
That is a lot of blood. Hard to imagine that much blood transferring there off of one of the killers. It has also been scuffed up -- like something rubbed against it. But the image is so tightly framed, it's hard to tell how big the area is.
Senior Death Hag
Considering the number of stab wounds to Sharon, it's really not hard to see how the killers could have had a large amount of blood to drip off of their body and their knives. Or possibly when Susan dabbed a towel in Sharon's blood to do her writing on the door, did she maybe get too much blood on the towel and wipe part of it off on the porch?
These killers through the decades have changed their story to suit their needs at the time. I think it would have taken too much time for any body to be moved in a quick manner. You'd be working with rigor mortis setting in, having to untie both Sharon and Jay from the rope in the front room, and then moving the bodies outside and then back inside, and then once back in, placing the rope around Sharon and Jay again and attempting to place them in the same positions before they were moved.
Manson seems to really enjoy telling people things that didn't actually happen. Simply stated, Manson enjoyed putting fear in people - and still does!
And if you think about it, there would have been more footprints in the hallway, the front porch, or the front walkway.
Last edited by kaseyko1; 01-04-2009 at 04:54 PM. Reason: Adding addt'l comment.
I just arrived back in the country, and ordered both DVd's
Hopefully it will be there when I get home. (in Miami tonight)
Just ordered tonight! Can't wait. I made a friend of mine drive right up to the freakin' gate of Cielo Drive after a long, dark drive over Mullholland. It was about 1 in the morning and I can't describe the feeling of creeping back there. My hair was standing on end! I'm sure the people along that little drive get so tired of hags like me. I knew exactly where it was because I had taken Scott's tour that day. (Still trying to do the Helter Skelter one, but it hasn't yet worked out.) Anyway, went back the following afternoon and took some pics. The return visit wasn't nearly as scary!
Wanna see the mailbox?
Last edited by Outlier; 01-04-2009 at 09:40 PM.
Senior Death Hag
Yep...I agree....I didn't realize how much blood there was....and if that was Sharon's...then how the hell did that get there unless someone really did move her......and if you look closely...it's also dripping down the wall just to the left. Wow....that's really fucked up!Here's a picture of the blood on the front porch:
That is a lot of blood. Hard to imagine that much blood transferring there off of one of the killers. It has also been scuffed up -- like something rubbed against it. But the image is so tightly framed, it's hard to tell how big the area is.
It also looks like something was sitting in the bushes. See how part of it looks pressed down.
I thought people weren't allowed up there? Or is it a lottery type scenario where you can get lucky one day and scoot up there without someone noticing and on another day be really unlucky and get pulled up immediately by the neighbours?
LAPD was not known for it's investing skills back then. I don't doubt that someone stepped in the bushes in order to get a better look.
It would depend on when the photos were taken.
This was a great documentary! Danny, his girls and I rang in the New Year watching this. It was very well done!!!
Senior Death Hag
The way I understand it, the photos were taken the same day the bodies were discovered, Aug 9. It would be interesting to hear from someone in the forensics field who would be able to somewhat determine if the victims had been moved or not. This is one aspect of the case that is puzzling, to say the least. It's certainly been shown that none of the killers are willing to tell the truth about what happened that night.
I don't know if this particular point is addressed on the new DVD or not. I'm hoping to get my copy any day now and can't wait!
Got ours Saturday and LOVED it! My only complaint is it is not hours and hours long....
Excellent work with many facts I did not know and I consider myself pretty educated on this subject. I went to the residence back in 89--friends and I were on a trip and just decided on a whim to ride up--gate was open and we pulled in like we owned the place.
Scariest moment I ever had.
If you haven't gotten the DVD, you need to. It's fab!
Last edited by meggles; 01-05-2009 at 01:02 PM. Reason: grammar
Renowned Death Hag
I thought it was only Sharon's blood?
Some people just need a high five.... in the face.... with a chair...
Mine arrived today! YAY!
I'm still waiting. it's been 2 weeks
That's the story. I just threw Voytek into the mix because he is the only victim who went anywhere near the front door where all of the blood is.
And that is A LOT of blood -- really hard to imagine that much getting there merely by transferrance off of the killers.
In all honesty, between the blood on the post and the blood pooled up and smeared under it, and what looks to be mashed down bushes nearby, it really looks like a body was laying there at one point, with the upper-body (where the victim was stabbed the most) at the top where the blood is pooled up, possibly the shoulder/head leaning against the post, and then two legs leaving the two marks taking up the bottom-half of the photo.
I don't know the details behind how/why they determined the bodies were never moved, and I don't expect to make any big breakthroughs in the case, considering how many times it's been gone over. Also, you would think that if there was any way to prove that Manson was ever up at the house on the night of the murders, prosecutor Bugliosi would have been all over it.
Last edited by Filmmaker78; 01-05-2009 at 10:09 PM.
Senior Death Hag
Very true. Bugliosi was able to prove Manson was at the home on 3/23/69 and knew the layout of the home. There's, unfortunately, not any credible or believable evidence to show Manson returned to the scene of the crime only a short time after the murders.
FAD Founder
I would contact them. Most copies have arrived within a week of ordering. If you didn't recieve a notice of shipment, its possible the order slipped through the cracks. It's worth sending them an email.I'm still waiting
Hero Worship - They Deserve it. I preserve it.
Absolutely. CreateSpace is super on-the-ball, usually. I ordered 20 copies and had them in like 3-4 days.
A lot of the ambient, distorted guitar creepy stuff came from Brandon Glen, who produces for Shitting Glitter -- friends of Scott's who also did the song for our end credits.
Most of the string stuff came from a production music house called Manhattan Production Music. The flute theme song that plays over the opening credits came from a company called Unique Tracks.
Death Hag
Sooooo excited received my copy this afternoon, can't wait I think its gonna be an early night for the kids
Thanks Scott, will do that. I still haven't recieved it.
Just found out my order was shipped 12 days ago. I'm assuming it is taking longer as I'm in Canada. Probably being held up at the boarder. I hope to get it soon, I can't wait to watch it!!!
Just got it in the late post this afternoon!!!!!!!!! Yeah!!! Watching it tonight. Anyone from Canada ordering the dvd should expect to wait 2 weeks. I guess it gets caught up at the boarder. I'm just so relieved it's here.
I received both tapes this afternoon, and we watched them tonight.
They were very well done, and Scott, I can see how much better the second one is compared to the first.
I also noticed something that I have never heard. It's your cute laugh. It is one that when you hear it, you want to laugh too.
The next should be going to one of the cemeteries, or to the famous homes, so that those of us who can't get out there, can pay to see it anyway.
Job well done.....
Watched mine last night. Excellent!!! It was great. Well done Scott and Mike. Well done
Mine shows it shipped on the 30th...hopefully I'll get it this weekend!!
Senior Death Hag
I received my copy today and watched today! Outstanding job Scott & Mike. Very interesting in how this documentary was put together. Keep up the great work!
Six Degrees rocked! I watched it last Saturday night, when it was all dark and creepy at my house. I knew the story, of course, and what to expect in relation to the crime itself, but it was still creepy all the same. I loved it!!
My favorite part, hands down, is Scott's visit to Barker Ranch. You know I knew it was remote, but had never thought about it being potentially dangerous to go out there. It was wonderful to be "taken along".
The DVD was definitely worth the wait. Congrats Scott and Filmmaker78!!
Last edited by ShellBell; 01-11-2009 at 02:42 AM.
Renowned Death Hag
Ordered my Copy today, I can't wait
Renowned Death Hag
Really nice job guys, very well done! I learned a lot - it's been many years since I read Helter (Healter) Skelter. I was amazed at a lot of the connections in Hollywood. I will tell my friends.
("Bitch in a Box" never heard that one!)
Scott & Team I and my hubby LOVED IT!!! I have watched it now twice since getting it a couple of days ago. You did a fantastic job. Love the background music, love the pictures, and all of the info I had never heard!!
Hubby puts up with the death hag stuff. He really isn't into it but he did watch the first time with me and thought it was a really well done doc.
One complaint... I wanted more!!!
Can someone start a spoiler thread so we can talk all about it?!!
My copy finally arrived yesterday and I sat and watched it last night. The facts that I didn't know about it..wow. To see the Ranch and just how remote it is, I surely dont blame you for not wanting to go back out there!! AWESOME job Scott and Filmmaker, I will be watching it over and over again!! Even the "extra's" were awesome. Scott you just amaze me with all the things you know and can just recite them...even on your tours.
Def a recommend one to my friends!!
Received my copy today and it is EXCELLENT!!! Great Job!
Just got my copy in Oz, only had to wait 10days!
What can I say.....
I LOVED IT! Bring on the next ones please!!!!!!!!!
So much I didn't know about the cases - so cool though!
Thanks
from sweltering 43C Sydney!
Death Hag
I finished watching The Six Degrees of Helter Skelter. The only complaint i have is that the font size was too small. (Just my opinion)
Other than that, I feel it was perfect. Scott rules!!! I really like the way he narrates the subject. I also like the way he did Dearly Departed Vol. 1 .
I agree with Katie. I would also like to see a DVD tour of the cemeteries or famous homes. It's highly unlikely that i will ever get to ride the tour bus.
I got my DVD last week and have watched it a few times. I love it and it makes me want DD3! When will we have that Scott?The thing I liked most about the video is it gave a new perspective of the crime. Most of the documentaries over the years is so much the same, and all the focus is on Manson and Family, and we forget that these victims were people with lives. It was nice seeing something from a different point of view, and I thought Scott did a great job making these victims "real", and not just names that are associated with such a gruesome event..
I do have to admit when Scott mentioned the part about the family being in the LaBianca home and eating watermelon and leaving the rhines in the sink so the police would think that black people had committed the murder, I couldn't help but laugh. The idea that an officer would see watermelon in the sink and automatically assume the crime had been commited by black people, to me, is just so ridiculous and cliche. The only thing that could've made it anymore weird is if they had also left behind a bucket of kfc and maybe a hair pick.
I'm in no way making fun of the murders, they are horrible. I'm perplexed at the simplicity of the mind of Manson, and his rationale. I think it also shows how lost, low self esteem, low IQ, and how all those limitations were probably enhanced even more by the drug use to be captivated or moved by his ideas.
I'm just curious does anyone know if any of the Manson Family members had criminal records prior to meeting up with Manson?
Renowned Death Hag
I agree seberly.
My wife and I watched it last night and I was extremely satisfied with the film, it is well worth the money. During the film i kept saying "What were they thinking" trying to figure out their logic and my wife would simply say "They are crazy!", laughing at me
I thought the film was great because it really showed all the twists and interlaced relationships in the case. It truly is stranger than fiction.
A couple of other things I found interesting is how out in the middle of nowhere Barkers Ranch was.
That Sharon Tate and Tex Watson were possibly neighbors.
Susan Atkins squatting down and taking a shit in stairwell.. what a nut...
Ordered mine tonight. I can't wait!!
Cupcake187 and I decided that we're going to have a "Death Hag Pajama Party".
Last edited by Boxofpandoraz; 01-26-2009 at 07:34 AM.
Senior Death Hag
Got my dvd today! Yay! Can't wait to watch it!
I ordered mine the night of the 17th, had a shipping confirmation email the next day, and received it 2 days later. Fastest online transaction I've ever had!!
That's great to hear! My transactions with CreateSpace have all been really positive.
BTW, everyone: Amazon is offering a special deal on bundling The Six Degrees of Helter Skelter with Dearly Departed: Vol. 1.
http://www.amazon.com/Six-Degrees-He...2914966&sr=8-1
Also, a few people have written reviews on Amazon, and I totally welcome that from anyone else who wants to contribute.
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