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Thread: David Koresh and the Branch Davidians

  1. #51
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    I spent many years in the military and have only worked for government agencies in my lifetime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lisalouver View Post
    I spent many years in the military and have only worked for government agencies in my lifetime.

    Our government is far from perfect, but I will take it over any other any day and twice on Sunday.
    I totally agree with you!

    (in spite of your state electing Senator Al Franken, lol)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat MaGroin View Post
    I totally agree with you!

    (in spite of your state electing Senator Al Franken, lol)
    LMAO.

    Don't forget we also elected Jesse Ventura to Governor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonecold View Post
    Never trust a "messiah" with a mullet and thousands of rounds of ammunition.
    You got that right, Stonecold. Somehow, I just don't see the Messiah being a mullet-wearing weapons stockpiler named Vernon.
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    CNN will have a Waco special on April 17/2011.

    http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/04/11/‘cnn-presents-waco-faith-fear-and-fire’-debuts-sunday-april-17/88981

    CNN has had some good docs on lately - the Triangle Fire, the Reagan shooting, MLK shooting and the Jonestown massacre.
    Last edited by cash; 04-12-2011 at 03:26 PM.

  6. #56
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    Hmmm
    His mom was stabbed to death in 2009.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,482608,00.html
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    You know, I did a paper maybe a year ago (I'm back in college after like a decade) about Timothy McVeigh. And there were three things he says were the reason for the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City.
    1. His experience in Desert Storm
    2. Waco, and
    3. Ruby Ridge

    I know, he killed 161 people including dozens of children in the ground floor day care. Although he didn't know a day care would be within a federal building, when asked how he felt about that he says, "collateral damage."

    I remember watching that nightmare unfold on TV, and I just, I got a really bad feeling that the government had done something terribly wrong here (not the first time I've had that feeling, but still...) And I still believe that. Really pissed me off to hear the government's explanation of their actions (or lack thereof.)

    I know what McVeigh did was wrong, and he paid for it with his life. (When asked, as he was being led to the execution chamber, how he felt about dying, and he says, "It's still 161 to 1. I've still won.") Of course I don't advocate terrorism, but I'm surprised more people didn't show outrage over what happened there.

    Seems a lot of us remember exactly where we were that day, which is good. Because imo, the government dropped the ball, and they dropped it on innocent families and their children. They can pretend they were "threatened" but I don't believe it. Sad day for this country.

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  8. #58
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    He treated American citizens like our government treats citizens of other countries when they want something.. "Collateral damage"


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    Quote Originally Posted by TaupinJohn View Post
    You know, I did a paper maybe a year ago (I'm back in college after like a decade) about Timothy McVeigh. And there were three things he says were the reason for the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City.
    1. His experience in Desert Storm
    2. Waco, and
    3. Ruby Ridge

    I know, he killed 161 people including dozens of children in the ground floor day care. Although he didn't know a day care would be within a federal building, when asked how he felt about that he says, "collateral damage."

    I remember watching that nightmare unfold on TV, and I just, I got a really bad feeling that the government had done something terribly wrong here (not the first time I've had that feeling, but still...) And I still believe that. Really pissed me off to hear the government's explanation of their actions (or lack thereof.)

    I know what McVeigh did was wrong, and he paid for it with his life. (When asked, as he was being led to the execution chamber, how he felt about dying, and he says, "It's still 161 to 1. I've still won.") Of course I don't advocate terrorism, but I'm surprised more people didn't show outrage over what happened there.

    Seems a lot of us remember exactly where we were that day, which is good. Because imo, the government dropped the ball, and they dropped it on innocent families and their children. They can pretend they were "threatened" but I don't believe it. Sad day for this country.
    I had occasion the past year to spend a fair amount of time in OKC and I went to the memorial for the bombing. It is very powerful. Being a New Yorker it was a shared pain and experience.
    It was interesting to see the street layout and astounding that he could park a rental truck that close and just casually saunter away from it. Those days are gone for sure.
    I think the government, in particular the ATF and the FBI needed a learning curve concerning how to deal with these groups and their mindset and reactions.
    Most likely Koresh could have been nabbed on an excursion off the property. I think it was tough to not act on the immediate accusations of child abuse but cooler heads and planning should have prevailed.
    There is no excuse on the planet or in this lifetime for Tim Mcveigh and what he did. He is no better than any of the 9/11 hijackers and worse in my mind because in some primal part of his brain he knew it was wrong. Also he was not from some alien culture where martyrdom is revered at the expense of innocent lives taken for a cause.
    I haven't one scintilla on sympathy or empathy for him. I know plenty of military and plenty of people with strong political positions different than mine but none of them are cowardly murderers on the own home soil.
    Batshit black helicopters aside this was inexcusable.
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    Waco all these years later

    Click here: 18 years after Waco, Davidians believe Koresh was God - CNN.com

    It's so hard to believe that they still think he is God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NOVSTORM View Post
    Click here: 18 years after Waco, Davidians believe Koresh was God - CNN.com

    It's so hard to believe that they still think he is God.
    People just aren't that smart

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    Quote Originally Posted by NOVSTORM View Post
    It's so hard to believe that they still think he is God.
    I saw a documentary called "Nazis: A Warning from History". In it they interview a few old German guys who were around "back in the day". This one guy in particular started talking about Hitler and he was gushing like a school girl in love. It was really creepy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanwench View Post
    You got that right, Stonecold. Somehow, I just don't see the Messiah being a mullet-wearing weapons stockpiler named Vernon.
    This reminded me - when I lived in Mexico this was in the news and the Mexicans would ask me about it. "Michelle, que esta pasando en Waco?"
    Pronounced 'Wacko'? It made me smile.

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    I recently watched a documentary on this called "Waco: The Rules of Engagement". It gets bit long and tedious in a few parts, but it gives you to pause to think - and makes you see how the government screwed the pooch on this one. But I thought it was a pretty interesting doc and gives you a history of the "church" and why David was the head of it and all - and how they mostly considered him a "prophet" and not "God".

    See it sometime.

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    I don't care what David Koresh did, it was NO reason to kill all the innocent children. They had possibly been victimized before but killing everyone wasn't the answer. Like David said, they could have got him on the way to Walmart, which he made regular visits to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonnaMc View Post
    I don't care what David Koresh did, it was NO reason to kill all the innocent children. They had possibly been victimized before but killing everyone wasn't the answer. Like David said, they could have got him on the way to Walmart, which he made regular visits to.
    That right there should have told everyone he wasn't who he said he was. I have a really hard time picturing Jesus in the Second Coming shopping at my local Wal-Mart.

    Of course, I'm not sure where he WOULD shop. Now I have to think about this for a while...

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    To understand the living, you got to commune with the dead.
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    Of course he could have walked out of the compound and surrendered. But no, he had his agenda. So convenient to blame the government.
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    Bumping it up for the anniversary


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    Quote Originally Posted by neilmpenny View Post
    Of course he could have walked out of the compound and surrendered. But no, he had his agenda. So convenient to blame the government.
    That's because the government was to blame.

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    I don't care whose fault it was, there was absolutely T-totally no excuse for him murdering all those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gottaqhfilly View Post
    That's because the government was to blame.
    HORSESHIT!! Koresh was raping children. A fact conveniently left out by the right wing gun nut hate government crowd. Not only that but he had stockpiles of illegal weapons. He doused the place with gasoline. The Government was more than patient with the lunatic. Your hero was a cult leading pedophile. FACT!! Enjoy that.

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    No one's opinion around here is "HORSESHIT." Carry on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    No one's opinion around here is "HORSESHIT." Carry on.
    When that opinion is contradicted by fact it is indeed horseshit. An opinion like "oh she's hot" or "that band sucks" is subjective and you'd be right to protect real opinions like that. But the Government being at fault for what happened there is wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, but of fact. But I take your point and will take the red card without protest. We'll just pretend you gave me the red card for saying ALL of his opinions past, present, and future are HORSESHIT.

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    Speaking as a right wing gun nut - the authorities were acting within the law, IMO.

    They were trying to serve a legal warrant, were ambushed and several were murdered. Then a bunch of the Davidians were murdered by their leader and some of his henchmen.

    I don't get the whole "cult" thing, whether it's Jim Jones, Koresh or the Nazis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimC View Post
    Speaking as a right wing gun nut - the authorities were acting within the law, IMO.

    They were trying to serve a legal warrant, were ambushed and several were murdered. Then a bunch of the Davidians were murdered by their leader and some of his henchmen.

    I don't get the whole "cult" thing, whether it's Jim Jones, Koresh or the Nazis.
    Well said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimC View Post
    Speaking as a right wing gun nut - the authorities were acting within the law, IMO.

    They were trying to serve a legal warrant, were ambushed and several were murdered. Then a bunch of the Davidians were murdered by their leader and some of his henchmen.

    I don't get the whole "cult" thing, whether it's Jim Jones, Koresh or the Nazis.
    As a supporter of the gun nut's rights I believe you are correct.

    I think the fire was started by tear gas burners put through the windows and with that said I'm sure the Davidians spread it.

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimC View Post
    Speaking as a right wing gun nut - the authorities were acting within the law, IMO.

    They were trying to serve a legal warrant, were ambushed and several were murdered. Then a bunch of the Davidians were murdered by their leader and some of his henchmen.

    I don't get the whole "cult" thing, whether it's Jim Jones, Koresh or the Nazis.
    Exactly!
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilmpenny View Post
    Of course he could have walked out of the compound and surrendered. But no, he had his agenda. So convenient to blame the government.
    The equally explosive Oka crisis in Canada was defused without fatalities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StewartGilliganGriffin View Post
    HORSESHIT!! Koresh was raping children. A fact conveniently left out by the right wing gun nut hate government crowd. Not only that but he had stockpiles of illegal weapons. He doused the place with gasoline. The Government was more than patient with the lunatic. Your hero was a cult leading pedophile. FACT!! Enjoy that.
    He was not my hero. But the entire fiasco was the governments fault. So, they had to KILL the children, to save them. Yeah, sure.

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    gottaqhfilly, please do not quote posts that break the rules.

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    I think there is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. Hadn't Janet Reno only been in office just a few days when this took place? The ATF didn't have to do the raid, they could have easily apprehended the idiot Koresh on one of his almost daily excursions in to town. The raid was originally supposed to happen on Monday, 3/1, however, The Waco Tribune had done a 3 part expose' on the idiot Koresh and wanted to publish it. The ATF had asked them to hold off several times until they could get their ducks in a row, so to speak. When the newspaper finally determined the ATF was dragging it's heels, The Tribune informed them that it was going to publish the 1st part of "The Sinful Messiah" that Sunday, forcing the ATF to make their move, and obviously not very prepared. The Davidians were tipped off to the raid because a local TV reporter stopped to ask a mail carrier directions to the compound. Turns out the mail carrier was the idiot Koresh's brother in law, giving them plenty of time to take positions.

    We obviously know the grisly aftermath. I think the ATF should have apprehended the idiot Koresh before conducting the raid, they had the house under surveillance for months and easily tracked his comings and goings, but claimed they were given intel that he rarely left the compound, a total and complete lie. I truly believe a lot of lives would have been saved had they taken him in. The idiot Koresh could have easily surrendered, saving a lot of lives as well, but we all know he believed he was God. My sweetheart actually had a garage sale with the idiot Koresh's mother back in the early 2000's, and she stated the mother was normal, but held to the belief that her son had been railroaded. A few years later she was stabbed to death by her own sister.
    Last edited by Dangitbawb; 09-24-2016 at 02:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangitbawb View Post
    I think there is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. Hadn't Janet Reno only been in office just a few days when this took place? The ATF didn't have to do the raid, they could have easily apprehended the idiot Koresh on one of his almost daily excursions in to town. The raid was originally supposed to happen on Monday, 3/1, however, The Waco Tribune had done a 3 part expose' on the idiot Koresh and wanted to publish it. The ATF had asked them to hold off several times until they could get their ducks in a row, so to speak. When the newspaper finally determined the ATF was dragging it's heels, The Tribune informed them that it was going to publish the 1st part of "The Sinful Messiah" that Sunday, forcing the ATF to make their move, and obviously not very prepared. The Davidians were tipped off to the raid because a local TV reporter stopped to ask a mail carrier directions to the compound. Turns out the mail carrier was the idiot Koresh's brother in law, giving them plenty of time to take positions.

    We obviously know the grisly aftermath. I think the ATF should have apprehended the idiot Koresh before conducting the raid, they had the house under surveillance for months and easily tracked his comings and goings, but claimed they were given intel that he rarely left the compound, a total and complete lie. I truly believe a lot of lives would have been saved had they taken him in. The idiot Koresh could have easily surrendered, saving a lot of lives as well, but we all know he believed he was God. My sweetheart actually had a garage sale with the idiot Koresh's mother back in the early 2000's, and she stated the mother was normal, but held to the belief that her son had been railroaded. A few years later she was stabbed to death by her own sister.

    You like to toss around the word "easily" when referring to complicated issues, which leads me to believe you don't know the scope of what was involved. Unfortunately the children died, but only because Koresh wouldn't allow them to leave. You MUST know law enforcement members have nightmares about this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by McCourt View Post
    You like to toss around the word "easily" when referring to complicated issues, which leads me to believe you don't know the scope of what was involved. Unfortunately the children died, but only because Koresh wouldn't allow them to leave. You MUST know law enforcement members have nightmares about this.
    You are correct, I don't know the full scope of what went on, and it's only my opinion that if Koresh had been arrested while in town, the children wouldn't have been held inside, but we'll never know. One thing that is factual is the ATF claiming he rarely left the compound which is a complete lie. I've also wondered if the reporter who asked the mail carrier for directions (and thereby spoiling the element of surprise) ever blamed himself. I've always wondered who fired the first shot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangitbawb View Post
    You are correct, I don't know the full scope of what went on, and it's only my opinion that if Koresh had been arrested while in town, the children wouldn't have been held inside, but we'll never know. One thing that is factual is the ATF claiming he rarely left the compound which is a complete lie. I've also wondered if the reporter who asked the mail carrier for directions (and thereby spoiling the element of surprise) ever blamed himself. I've always wondered who fired the first shot.
    So many questions we will never know the answers to. I'd like to know how these crazy mofos keep getting people to follow them. Its so sad. I was pregnant with my son, who is now 23 years old. The kids inside should have been allowed to celebrate all those birthdays too. "Seekers" should think three, four, ten times before involving kids in their searches.
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    I lived in Dallas Ft Worth for 25 years before moving to central Texas, it's a totally different universe down here, religion, politics, etc... It pains me to no end that so many children's lives were taken like that, and I blame it completely on the cult. I don't know if these people needed a sense of belonging or were just plain ignorant, but it's something that the normal thinking person will never be able to make sense of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by McCourt View Post
    So many questions we will never know the answers to. I'd like to know how these crazy mofos keep getting people to follow them. Its so sad. I was pregnant with my son, who is now 23 years old. The kids inside should have been allowed to celebrate all those birthdays too. "Seekers" should think three, four, ten times before involving kids in their searches.
    I guess they have faith so they follow.

    Besides; Jim Jones, Koresh - their credentials as prophets or messiah's are every bit as solid and credible as anyone else's throughout history. How can we know they weren't right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimC View Post
    I guess they have faith so they follow.

    Besides; Jim Jones, Koresh - their credentials as prophets or messiah's are every bit as solid and credible as anyone else's throughout history. How can we know they weren't right?
    A "Messiah" that leads his followers to death? I can't believe that. Sorry. I think those people were weak and unfortunately their children had no choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by McCourt View Post
    A "Messiah" that leads his followers to death? I can't believe that. Sorry. I think those people were weak and unfortunately their children had no choice.
    I agree 100%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McCourt View Post
    A "Messiah" that leads his followers to death? I can't believe that. Sorry. I think those people were weak and unfortunately their children had no choice.
    Bingo. World's full of sheep. Just don't always find the right shepherd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleanskull View Post
    Bingo. World's full of sheep. Just don't always find the right shepherd.
    Ditto bingo

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    I can't say y'all aren't right of course.
    I can say that any labels we might apply to those folks could probably be applied to believers in anything supernatural everywhere.
    Christ, Koresh and Jones all seemed to be content to just carry on with what they were doing until the authorities showed up.
    Reason, rationality and verifiable evidence just don't figure into supernatural beliefs; thus everything goes and every belief is equally valid even though unsupported by anything aside from other beliefs.

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    And so in what compound did Christ slay his followers? What poisoned drink? What fire?

    When the authorities arrived, Christ said (paraphrased) "You have me, let the others go." John 18:8.
    Last edited by cindyt; 09-26-2016 at 10:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    And so in what compound did Christ slay his followers? What poisoned drink? What fire?

    When the authorities arrived, Christ said (paraphrased) "You have me, let the others go." John 18:8.
    Yeah, the part where he included Christ with Koresh and Jones was a bit surprising to me too. LOL I don't want to put words on Jim's posts but I get the feeling maybe he's not a believer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cindyt View Post
    And so in what compound did Christ slay his followers? What poisoned drink? What fire?

    When the authorities arrived, Christ said (paraphrased) "You have me, let the others go." John 18:8.
    I didn't say or mean to imply that Christ killed anyone. As far as I know neither did Jones or Koresh until the end although it seems that mental and maybe physical abuse were at work by their hands or by their orders. It also appears that people who might have decided to leave were not allowed to even though at least some had been able to walk away or escape in the past.

    I question how we can decide or accept that one guy is a prophet of God based upon his saying so while rejecting out of hand that someone else is based upon the same "credentials".

    Quote Originally Posted by McCourt View Post
    Yeah, the part where he included Christ with Koresh and Jones was a bit surprising to me too. LOL I don't want to put words on Jim's posts but I get the feeling maybe he's not a believer.
    I wasn't really comparing or contrasting the three - that was just an "observation" that I guess points out a similarity between the situations. Obviously, based upon what I've read or "know" about the matters; the authorities needed to intercede in the Koresh and Jones cults; it's just a shame that they weren't able to do it in a way that had less tragic consequences. I guess that Christ was also in violation of the laws of his day being as he was arrested and hauled in to be judged.

    I am a recent (about a year) convert to something akin to atheism. I called myself "agnostic" briefly before arriving at the conclusion that I do not believe in an all powerful, all knowing Creator of the Universe as held forth by the Abrahamic religions; not sure aside from that yet exactly what I do and do not believe - I just no longer believe that dogma so I use "atheist" for want of a better or more accurate term.

    I don't understand either how people wind up following guys like Koresh; or how they think that taking their children into such a situation or environment might be "OK". They fail as critically thinking adults and they fail as parents with sometimes all too tragic results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimC View Post
    I didn't say or mean to imply that Christ killed anyone. As far as I know neither did Jones or Koresh until the end although it seems that mental and maybe physical abuse were at work by their hands or by their orders. It also appears that people who might have decided to leave were not allowed to even though at least some had been able to walk away or escape in the past.

    I question how we can decide or accept that one guy is a prophet of God based upon his saying so while rejecting out of hand that someone else is based upon the same "credentials".



    I wasn't really comparing or contrasting the three - that was just an "observation" that I guess points out a similarity between the situations. Obviously, based upon what I've read or "know" about the matters; the authorities needed to intercede in the Koresh and Jones cults; it's just a shame that they weren't able to do it in a way that had less tragic consequences. I guess that Christ was also in violation of the laws of his day being as he was arrested and hauled in to be judged.

    I am a recent (about a year) convert to something akin to atheism. I called myself "agnostic" briefly before arriving at the conclusion that I do not believe in an all powerful, all knowing Creator of the Universe as held forth by the Abrahamic religions; not sure aside from that yet exactly what I do and do not believe - I just no longer believe that dogma so I use "atheist" for want of a better or more accurate term.

    I don't understand either how people wind up following guys like Koresh; or how they think that taking their children into such a situation or environment might be "OK". They fail as critically thinking adults and they fail as parents with sometimes all too tragic results.
    Your "Christ, Koresh, Jones" thing reminded me of a joke I heard once where this guy said growing up he was always a good boy. He didn't drink, smoke or date white women.
    To understand the living, you got to commune with the dead.
    Minerva

  47. #97
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  48. #98
    I watched 'Waco: Madman or Messiah' on A&E tonight.

    It was interesting because it featured a wide range of perspectives. They had interviews with people who left the group, ATF and FBI agents, and people who still believe Koresh was God and that he will arrive in another form.

    The Davidians claim that the ATF agents fired first during the initial raid. No one really refuted that claim in the documentary.

    It seems as though something happened around 1989 that made Koresh focus on Revelations and the Apocalypse. That's when they started stockpiling weapons.

    The ATF guy they interviewed said the initial raid was meant to convince Congress to put more funding into the ATF. Koresh was tipped off, but they proceeded anyway.

    Anyway, it was a good documentary.

  49. #99
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    I'd say that he has indeed already arrived in another form.
    It's rather like charcoal.
    A faulty hypothesis forming:
    A German scientist using Iranian physics and French mathematics.

  50. #100
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    I do not believe the government was at fault, as someone said and from what I read they went there with a warrant, and were ambushed, Koresh was talked to before, and didn't comply, he had illegal guns, he was abusing children, and women, as well as most of the men. He brainwashed people, deprived them most days of sleep and food, and kept telling them that the end was coming, he made those law enforcement men seem like monsters to his followers, he could have let the children go, he also poured gas around and set up explosives, I read somewhere, that he told his followers that if law enforcement got in he or one of them would set off the explosives, so no matter what happened many were going to die, I blame Koresh for everything that happened, he could have let those that wanted to go out, the children, women and men.
    "My Darling Girl ,when are you going to realize that being normal is not necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage." ~Aunt Frances~ #METOO grandpa Jan 8,1927-March 9, 2006 Grandma Nov 6, 1926-June 28, 2018. Forever loved and missed always in my heart.

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