I spent many years in the military and have only worked for government agencies in my lifetime.
Our government is far from perfect, but I will take it over any other any day and twice on Sunday.
I spent many years in the military and have only worked for government agencies in my lifetime.
Our government is far from perfect, but I will take it over any other any day and twice on Sunday.
CNN will have a Waco special on April 17/2011.
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2011/04/11/‘cnn-presents-waco-faith-fear-and-fire’-debuts-sunday-april-17/88981
CNN has had some good docs on lately - the Triangle Fire, the Reagan shooting, MLK shooting and the Jonestown massacre.
Last edited by cash; 04-12-2011 at 03:26 PM.
Hmmm
His mom was stabbed to death in 2009.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,482608,00.html
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
You know, I did a paper maybe a year ago (I'm back in college after like a decade) about Timothy McVeigh. And there were three things he says were the reason for the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City.
1. His experience in Desert Storm
2. Waco, and
3. Ruby Ridge
I know, he killed 161 people including dozens of children in the ground floor day care. Although he didn't know a day care would be within a federal building, when asked how he felt about that he says, "collateral damage."
I remember watching that nightmare unfold on TV, and I just, I got a really bad feeling that the government had done something terribly wrong here (not the first time I've had that feeling, but still...) And I still believe that. Really pissed me off to hear the government's explanation of their actions (or lack thereof.)
I know what McVeigh did was wrong, and he paid for it with his life. (When asked, as he was being led to the execution chamber, how he felt about dying, and he says, "It's still 161 to 1. I've still won.") Of course I don't advocate terrorism, but I'm surprised more people didn't show outrage over what happened there.
Seems a lot of us remember exactly where we were that day, which is good. Because imo, the government dropped the ball, and they dropped it on innocent families and their children. They can pretend they were "threatened" but I don't believe it. Sad day for this country.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul! (Invictus)
(And Timothy McVeigh's last words...)
He treated American citizens like our government treats citizens of other countries when they want something.. "Collateral damage"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"I will be buried in a spring loaded casket filled with confetti, and a future archaeologist will have one awesome day at work."
I had occasion the past year to spend a fair amount of time in OKC and I went to the memorial for the bombing. It is very powerful. Being a New Yorker it was a shared pain and experience.
It was interesting to see the street layout and astounding that he could park a rental truck that close and just casually saunter away from it. Those days are gone for sure.
I think the government, in particular the ATF and the FBI needed a learning curve concerning how to deal with these groups and their mindset and reactions.
Most likely Koresh could have been nabbed on an excursion off the property. I think it was tough to not act on the immediate accusations of child abuse but cooler heads and planning should have prevailed.
There is no excuse on the planet or in this lifetime for Tim Mcveigh and what he did. He is no better than any of the 9/11 hijackers and worse in my mind because in some primal part of his brain he knew it was wrong. Also he was not from some alien culture where martyrdom is revered at the expense of innocent lives taken for a cause.
I haven't one scintilla on sympathy or empathy for him. I know plenty of military and plenty of people with strong political positions different than mine but none of them are cowardly murderers on the own home soil.
Batshit black helicopters aside this was inexcusable.
Regards,
Mary
Click here: 18 years after Waco, Davidians believe Koresh was God - CNN.com
It's so hard to believe that they still think he is God.
I recently watched a documentary on this called "Waco: The Rules of Engagement". It gets bit long and tedious in a few parts, but it gives you to pause to think - and makes you see how the government screwed the pooch on this one. But I thought it was a pretty interesting doc and gives you a history of the "church" and why David was the head of it and all - and how they mostly considered him a "prophet" and not "God".
See it sometime.
I don't care what David Koresh did, it was NO reason to kill all the innocent children. They had possibly been victimized before but killing everyone wasn't the answer. Like David said, they could have got him on the way to Walmart, which he made regular visits to.
New memoir from Waco survivor:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-young-12.html
To understand the living, you got to commune with the dead.
Minerva
Of course he could have walked out of the compound and surrendered. But no, he had his agenda. So convenient to blame the government.
I am a sick puppy....woof woof!!!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Carping the living shit out of the Diem. - Me!!
http://www.pinterest.com/neilmpenny
Bumping it up for the anniversary
HORSESHIT!! Koresh was raping children. A fact conveniently left out by the right wing gun nut hate government crowd. Not only that but he had stockpiles of illegal weapons. He doused the place with gasoline. The Government was more than patient with the lunatic. Your hero was a cult leading pedophile. FACT!! Enjoy that.
When that opinion is contradicted by fact it is indeed horseshit. An opinion like "oh she's hot" or "that band sucks" is subjective and you'd be right to protect real opinions like that. But the Government being at fault for what happened there is wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, but of fact. But I take your point and will take the red card without protest. We'll just pretend you gave me the red card for saying ALL of his opinions past, present, and future are HORSESHIT.
Speaking as a right wing gun nut - the authorities were acting within the law, IMO.
They were trying to serve a legal warrant, were ambushed and several were murdered. Then a bunch of the Davidians were murdered by their leader and some of his henchmen.
I don't get the whole "cult" thing, whether it's Jim Jones, Koresh or the Nazis.
A faulty hypothesis forming:
A German scientist using Iranian physics and French mathematics.
I think there is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. Hadn't Janet Reno only been in office just a few days when this took place? The ATF didn't have to do the raid, they could have easily apprehended the idiot Koresh on one of his almost daily excursions in to town. The raid was originally supposed to happen on Monday, 3/1, however, The Waco Tribune had done a 3 part expose' on the idiot Koresh and wanted to publish it. The ATF had asked them to hold off several times until they could get their ducks in a row, so to speak. When the newspaper finally determined the ATF was dragging it's heels, The Tribune informed them that it was going to publish the 1st part of "The Sinful Messiah" that Sunday, forcing the ATF to make their move, and obviously not very prepared. The Davidians were tipped off to the raid because a local TV reporter stopped to ask a mail carrier directions to the compound. Turns out the mail carrier was the idiot Koresh's brother in law, giving them plenty of time to take positions.
We obviously know the grisly aftermath. I think the ATF should have apprehended the idiot Koresh before conducting the raid, they had the house under surveillance for months and easily tracked his comings and goings, but claimed they were given intel that he rarely left the compound, a total and complete lie. I truly believe a lot of lives would have been saved had they taken him in. The idiot Koresh could have easily surrendered, saving a lot of lives as well, but we all know he believed he was God. My sweetheart actually had a garage sale with the idiot Koresh's mother back in the early 2000's, and she stated the mother was normal, but held to the belief that her son had been railroaded. A few years later she was stabbed to death by her own sister.
Last edited by Dangitbawb; 09-24-2016 at 02:39 PM.
By my troth, I care not; a man can die but once; we owe God a death.... He that dies this year is quit for the next.
--William Shakespeare!
You like to toss around the word "easily" when referring to complicated issues, which leads me to believe you don't know the scope of what was involved. Unfortunately the children died, but only because Koresh wouldn't allow them to leave. You MUST know law enforcement members have nightmares about this.
To understand the living, you got to commune with the dead.
Minerva
You are correct, I don't know the full scope of what went on, and it's only my opinion that if Koresh had been arrested while in town, the children wouldn't have been held inside, but we'll never know. One thing that is factual is the ATF claiming he rarely left the compound which is a complete lie. I've also wondered if the reporter who asked the mail carrier for directions (and thereby spoiling the element of surprise) ever blamed himself. I've always wondered who fired the first shot.
By my troth, I care not; a man can die but once; we owe God a death.... He that dies this year is quit for the next.
--William Shakespeare!
So many questions we will never know the answers to. I'd like to know how these crazy mofos keep getting people to follow them. Its so sad. I was pregnant with my son, who is now 23 years old. The kids inside should have been allowed to celebrate all those birthdays too. "Seekers" should think three, four, ten times before involving kids in their searches.
To understand the living, you got to commune with the dead.
Minerva
I lived in Dallas Ft Worth for 25 years before moving to central Texas, it's a totally different universe down here, religion, politics, etc... It pains me to no end that so many children's lives were taken like that, and I blame it completely on the cult. I don't know if these people needed a sense of belonging or were just plain ignorant, but it's something that the normal thinking person will never be able to make sense of.
By my troth, I care not; a man can die but once; we owe God a death.... He that dies this year is quit for the next.
--William Shakespeare!
I can't say y'all aren't right of course.
I can say that any labels we might apply to those folks could probably be applied to believers in anything supernatural everywhere.
Christ, Koresh and Jones all seemed to be content to just carry on with what they were doing until the authorities showed up.
Reason, rationality and verifiable evidence just don't figure into supernatural beliefs; thus everything goes and every belief is equally valid even though unsupported by anything aside from other beliefs.
I didn't say or mean to imply that Christ killed anyone. As far as I know neither did Jones or Koresh until the end although it seems that mental and maybe physical abuse were at work by their hands or by their orders. It also appears that people who might have decided to leave were not allowed to even though at least some had been able to walk away or escape in the past.
I question how we can decide or accept that one guy is a prophet of God based upon his saying so while rejecting out of hand that someone else is based upon the same "credentials".
I wasn't really comparing or contrasting the three - that was just an "observation" that I guess points out a similarity between the situations. Obviously, based upon what I've read or "know" about the matters; the authorities needed to intercede in the Koresh and Jones cults; it's just a shame that they weren't able to do it in a way that had less tragic consequences. I guess that Christ was also in violation of the laws of his day being as he was arrested and hauled in to be judged.
I am a recent (about a year) convert to something akin to atheism. I called myself "agnostic" briefly before arriving at the conclusion that I do not believe in an all powerful, all knowing Creator of the Universe as held forth by the Abrahamic religions; not sure aside from that yet exactly what I do and do not believe - I just no longer believe that dogma so I use "atheist" for want of a better or more accurate term.
I don't understand either how people wind up following guys like Koresh; or how they think that taking their children into such a situation or environment might be "OK". They fail as critically thinking adults and they fail as parents with sometimes all too tragic results.
I watched 'Waco: Madman or Messiah' on A&E tonight.
It was interesting because it featured a wide range of perspectives. They had interviews with people who left the group, ATF and FBI agents, and people who still believe Koresh was God and that he will arrive in another form.
The Davidians claim that the ATF agents fired first during the initial raid. No one really refuted that claim in the documentary.
It seems as though something happened around 1989 that made Koresh focus on Revelations and the Apocalypse. That's when they started stockpiling weapons.
The ATF guy they interviewed said the initial raid was meant to convince Congress to put more funding into the ATF. Koresh was tipped off, but they proceeded anyway.
Anyway, it was a good documentary.
I'd say that he has indeed already arrived in another form.
It's rather like charcoal.
A faulty hypothesis forming:
A German scientist using Iranian physics and French mathematics.
I do not believe the government was at fault, as someone said and from what I read they went there with a warrant, and were ambushed, Koresh was talked to before, and didn't comply, he had illegal guns, he was abusing children, and women, as well as most of the men. He brainwashed people, deprived them most days of sleep and food, and kept telling them that the end was coming, he made those law enforcement men seem like monsters to his followers, he could have let the children go, he also poured gas around and set up explosives, I read somewhere, that he told his followers that if law enforcement got in he or one of them would set off the explosives, so no matter what happened many were going to die, I blame Koresh for everything that happened, he could have let those that wanted to go out, the children, women and men.